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Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why don\'t we
just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop?
Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?
On 12/11/2022 21:22, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-11-12 15:17, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:39:00 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2022-11-12 14:22, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 17:55:38 -0000, rick
rick_hughes@_remove_btconnect.com> wrote:
On 06/11/2022 14:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why
don\'t we
just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop?
Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?
It is a legal requirement to keep the frequency at 50Hz over a set
period.
Therefore if it lags at any point they have to increase to catch up.
This was a legal requirement due to mains clocks.
But you can drop it to 49 for a while then put it up to 51 when there\'s
plenty power.
And do it in the entire Europe, simultaneously?
We\'re linked by DC, so no.
Wrong.
Yes, the European mainland grid whilst it is not all of Europe, is
synchronised.
I believe Norway, the UK and Ireland, are definietly totally separate.
On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 10:48:31 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 12/11/2022 21:22, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-11-12 15:17, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:39:00 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2022-11-12 14:22, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 17:55:38 -0000, rick
rick_hughes@_remove_btconnect.com> wrote:
On 06/11/2022 14:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why
don\'t we
just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop?
Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?
It is a legal requirement to keep the frequency at 50Hz over a set
period.
Therefore if it lags at any point they have to increase to catch up.
This was a legal requirement due to mains clocks.
But you can drop it to 49 for a while then put it up to 51 when there\'s
plenty power.
And do it in the entire Europe, simultaneously?
We\'re linked by DC, so no.
Wrong.
Yes, the European mainland grid whilst it is not all of Europe, is
synchronised.
I believe Norway, the UK and Ireland, are definietly totally separate.
There us a good map of the various synchronous networks in Europe in
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_grid_of_Continental_Europe
It should be noted that some areas in North Africa is connected to
UCTE. Denmark is interesting, Jutland is in UCTE while the islands
are in the Nordic net.
The CIS (Russia etc) has an own synchronous network.
The situation in Ukraine is currently unclear.
On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 22:22:24 +0100, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2022-11-12 15:17, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:39:00 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2022-11-12 14:22, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 17:55:38 -0000, rick
rick_hughes@_remove_btconnect.com> wrote:
On 06/11/2022 14:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why
don\'t we
just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop?
Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?
It is a legal requirement to keep the frequency at 50Hz over a set
period.
Therefore if it lags at any point they have to increase to catch up.
This was a legal requirement due to mains clocks.
But you can drop it to 49 for a while then put it up to 51 when there\'s
plenty power.
And do it in the entire Europe, simultaneously?
We\'re linked by DC, so no.
Wrong.
Most parts of continental Europe are connected to a single 50 Hz
synchronous network (UCTE). UK is connected to this network with under
sea DC cables. Scandinavia is also connected to this UCTE network with
DC cables. All these three networks are nominally 50 Hz but there are
phase differences varying all the time.
Due to the AC/DC/AC connection across the Channel UK could do some
strange thing with their network without affecting the continental
Europe.or Scandinavia.
On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 07:56:00 -0000, <upsidedown@downunder.com> wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 22:22:24 +0100, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2022-11-12 15:17, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:39:00 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2022-11-12 14:22, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 17:55:38 -0000, rick
rick_hughes@_remove_btconnect.com> wrote:
On 06/11/2022 14:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why
don\'t we
just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop?
Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?
It is a legal requirement to keep the frequency at 50Hz over a set
period.
Therefore if it lags at any point they have to increase to catch up.
This was a legal requirement due to mains clocks.
But you can drop it to 49 for a while then put it up to 51 when there\'s
plenty power.
And do it in the entire Europe, simultaneously?
We\'re linked by DC, so no.
Wrong.
Most parts of continental Europe are connected to a single 50 Hz
synchronous network (UCTE). UK is connected to this network with under
sea DC cables. Scandinavia is also connected to this UCTE network with
DC cables. All these three networks are nominally 50 Hz but there are
phase differences varying all the time.
Due to the AC/DC/AC connection across the Channel UK could do some
strange thing with their network without affecting the continental
Europe.or Scandinavia.
What does USA do with it\'s 60Hz shit?
Or does it do as it does with the rest of politics, ignore everyone non-American?
On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 10:48:31 -0000, The Natural Philosopher
tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 12/11/2022 21:22, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-11-12 15:17, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:39:00 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2022-11-12 14:22, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 17:55:38 -0000, rick
rick_hughes@_remove_btconnect.com> wrote:
On 06/11/2022 14:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why
don\'t we
just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop?
Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?
It is a legal requirement to keep the frequency at 50Hz over a set
period.
Therefore if it lags at any point they have to increase to catch up.
This was a legal requirement due to mains clocks.
But you can drop it to 49 for a while then put it up to 51 when
there\'s
plenty power.
And do it in the entire Europe, simultaneously?
We\'re linked by DC, so no.
Wrong.
Yes, the European mainland grid whilst it is not all of Europe, is
synchronised.
I believe Norway, the UK and Ireland, are definietly totally separate.
I thought there was a problem with capacitance sending AC a long
distance, hence DC to the UK? Yet they\'re managing AC throughout most
of Europe?
On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 22:22:24 +0100, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2022-11-12 15:17, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:39:00 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2022-11-12 14:22, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 17:55:38 -0000, rick
rick_hughes@_remove_btconnect.com> wrote:
On 06/11/2022 14:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why
don\'t we
just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop?
Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?
It is a legal requirement to keep the frequency at 50Hz over a set
period.
Therefore if it lags at any point they have to increase to catch up.
This was a legal requirement due to mains clocks.
But you can drop it to 49 for a while then put it up to 51 when there\'s
plenty power.
And do it in the entire Europe, simultaneously?
We\'re linked by DC, so no.
Wrong.
Most parts of continental Europe are connected to a single 50 Hz
synchronous network (UCTE). UK is connected to this network with under
sea DC cables. Scandinavia is also connected to this UCTE network with
DC cables. All these three networks are nominally 50 Hz but there are
phase differences varying all the time.
Due to the AC/DC/AC connection across the Channel UK could do some
strange thing with their network without affecting the continental
Europe.or Scandinavia.
On 17/11/2022 19:03, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Yes, the European mainland grid whilst it is not all of Europe, is
synchronised.
I believe Norway, the UK and Ireland, are definietly totally separate.
I thought there was a problem with capacitance sending AC a long
distance, hence DC to the UK? Yet they\'re managing AC throughout most
of Europe?
They\'re not having to send it undersea though.
On 12/11/2022 13:39, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-11-12 14:22, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 17:55:38 -0000, rick
rick_hughes@_remove_btconnect.com> wrote:
On 06/11/2022 14:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why
don\'t we
just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop?
Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?
It is a legal requirement to keep the frequency at 50Hz over a set
period.
Therefore if it lags at any point they have to increase to catch up.
This was a legal requirement due to mains clocks.
But you can drop it to 49 for a while then put it up to 51 when
there\'s plenty power.
And do it in the entire Europe, simultaneously?
That can in fact be done. And was done. And it wrecked equipment in
German factories, so they installed their own exactly 50Hz inverters.
I think the problem originated in one of the ex eastern bloc nations.
On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 10:48:31 -0000, The Natural Philosopher
tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 12/11/2022 21:22, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-11-12 15:17, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:39:00 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2022-11-12 14:22, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 17:55:38 -0000, rick
rick_hughes@_remove_btconnect.com> wrote:
On 06/11/2022 14:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power
shortage, why don\'t we just allow (or deliberately) the
voltage and frequency to drop? Wouldn\'t that make a lot
of devices use less?
It is a legal requirement to keep the frequency at 50Hz
over a set period. Therefore if it lags at any point they
have to increase to catch up.
This was a legal requirement due to mains clocks.
But you can drop it to 49 for a while then put it up to 51
when there\'s plenty power.
And do it in the entire Europe, simultaneously?
We\'re linked by DC, so no.
Wrong.
Yes, the European mainland grid whilst it is not all of Europe, is
synchronised. I believe Norway, the UK and Ireland, are definietly
totally separate.
I thought there was a problem with capacitance sending AC a long
distance, hence DC to the UK? Yet they\'re managing AC throughout
most of Europe?
Japanese kit can pretty much always be relied upon to work on either 50
or 60Hz since roughly half of their country is on each frequency.
On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 11:47:06 -0000, Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 12/11/2022 14:18, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:37:24 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2022-11-12 14:11, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:05:02 -0000, John Walliker
jrwalliker@gmail.com
wrote:
On Saturday, 12 November 2022 at 12:08:20 UTC, Commander Kinsey
wrote:
Why would an invertor disconnect at lower frequency? It should be
able to match any frequency.
Its a regulatory requirement.
That is not an explanation. There\'s no reason to disconnect.
It is to me... If I am the engineer designing or installing an
inverter,
I have to follow the law and regulations.
No, you\'re *supposed* to.
And a puny domestic inverter will die horribly if it stays on too long.
Anyway, that doesn\'t explain why the regulation is there. Surely an
invertor is capable of producing a sine wave at any frequency?
The semiconductor electronics are certainly capable of that but the
transformer will saturate and then get hot ultimately catching fire if
the frequency drops too low. Some US kit built for 60Hz only would get
awfully hot on UK 50Hz mains. A cheap and nasty US brand of shavers sold
mostly at Xmas relied on a 60Hz mechanical resonance for good measure.
Japanese kit can pretty much always be relied upon to work on either 50
or 60Hz since roughly half of their country is on each frequency.
Then it must be possible to let it go way below 50Hz. The regulation\'s
a bit daft if some can do it.
What does USA do with it\'s 60Hz shit?
Support the largest and most successful economy on the planet.
I thought there was a problem with capacitance sending AC a long
distance, hence DC to the UK? Yet they\'re managing AC throughout most
of Europe?
They\'re not having to send it undersea though.
There is a problem with capacitance and inductance sending high voltage
underground or undersea for significant distances, which DC doesn\'t have.
SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> writes:
On 17/11/2022 19:03, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Yes, the European mainland grid whilst it is not all of Europe, is
synchronised.
I believe Norway, the UK and Ireland, are definietly totally separate.
I thought there was a problem with capacitance sending AC a long
distance, hence DC to the UK? Yet they\'re managing AC throughout most
of Europe?
They\'re not having to send it undersea though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HVDC_Gotland
On 2022-11-17 20:03, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 10:48:31 -0000, The Natural Philosopher
tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 12/11/2022 21:22, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-11-12 15:17, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:39:00 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2022-11-12 14:22, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 17:55:38 -0000, rick
rick_hughes@_remove_btconnect.com> wrote:
On 06/11/2022 14:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power
shortage, why don\'t we just allow (or deliberately) the
voltage and frequency to drop? Wouldn\'t that make a lot
of devices use less?
It is a legal requirement to keep the frequency at 50Hz
over a set period. Therefore if it lags at any point they
have to increase to catch up.
This was a legal requirement due to mains clocks.
But you can drop it to 49 for a while then put it up to 51
when there\'s plenty power.
And do it in the entire Europe, simultaneously?
We\'re linked by DC, so no.
Wrong.
Yes, the European mainland grid whilst it is not all of Europe, is
synchronised. I believe Norway, the UK and Ireland, are definietly
totally separate.
I thought there was a problem with capacitance sending AC a long
distance, hence DC to the UK? Yet they\'re managing AC throughout
most of Europe?
There is a problem with capacitance and inductance sending high voltage
underground or undersea for significant distances, which DC doesn\'t have.
On 11/17/2022 11:20 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-11-17 20:03, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 10:48:31 -0000, The Natural Philosopher
tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 12/11/2022 21:22, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-11-12 15:17, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:39:00 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2022-11-12 14:22, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 17:55:38 -0000, rick
rick_hughes@_remove_btconnect.com> wrote:
On 06/11/2022 14:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power
shortage, why don\'t we just allow (or deliberately) the
voltage and frequency to drop? Wouldn\'t that make a lot
of devices use less?
It is a legal requirement to keep the frequency at 50Hz
over a set period. Therefore if it lags at any point they
have to increase to catch up.
This was a legal requirement due to mains clocks.
But you can drop it to 49 for a while then put it up to 51
when there\'s plenty power.
And do it in the entire Europe, simultaneously?
We\'re linked by DC, so no.
Wrong.
Yes, the European mainland grid whilst it is not all of Europe, is
synchronised. I believe Norway, the UK and Ireland, are definietly
totally separate.
I thought there was a problem with capacitance sending AC a long
distance, hence DC to the UK? Yet they\'re managing AC throughout
most of Europe?
There is a problem with capacitance and inductance sending high voltage
underground or undersea for significant distances, which DC doesn\'t have.
More power can be sent through above ground lines too with DC than with AC.
On 2022-11-17 20:03, Commander Kinsey wrote:
I thought there was a problem with capacitance sending AC a long
distance, hence DC to the UK? Yet they\'re managing AC throughout
most of Europe?
There is a problem with capacitance and inductance sending high voltage
underground or undersea for significant distances, which DC doesn\'t have.