Mains power voltage drop to reduce usage?...

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 12/11/2022 21:22, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2022-11-12 15:17, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:39:00 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-11-12 14:22, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 17:55:38 -0000, rick
rick_hughes@_remove_btconnect.com> wrote:

On 06/11/2022 14:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why
don\'t we
just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop?
Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?

It is a legal requirement to keep the frequency at 50Hz over a set
period.
Therefore if it lags at any point they have to increase to catch up.

This was a legal requirement due to mains clocks.

But you can drop it to 49 for a while then put it up to 51 when there\'s
plenty power.

And do it in the entire Europe, simultaneously?

We\'re linked by DC, so no.

Wrong.

Yes, the European mainland grid whilst it is not all of Europe, is
synchronised.
I believe Norway, the UK and Ireland, are definietly totally separate.


--
\"First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your
oppressors.\"
- George Orwell

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 13/11/2022 07:56, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 22:22:24 +0100, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-11-12 15:17, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:39:00 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-11-12 14:22, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 17:55:38 -0000, rick
rick_hughes@_remove_btconnect.com> wrote:

On 06/11/2022 14:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why
don\'t we
just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop?
Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?

It is a legal requirement to keep the frequency at 50Hz over a set
period.
Therefore if it lags at any point they have to increase to catch up.

This was a legal requirement due to mains clocks.

But you can drop it to 49 for a while then put it up to 51 when there\'s
plenty power.

And do it in the entire Europe, simultaneously?

We\'re linked by DC, so no.

Wrong.

Most parts of continental Europe are connected to a single 50 Hz
synchronous network (UCTE). UK is connected to this network with under
sea DC cables. Scandinavia is also connected to this UCTE network with
DC cables. All these three networks are nominally 50 Hz but there are
phase differences varying all the time.

Due to the AC/DC/AC connection across the Channel UK could do some
strange thing with their network without affecting the continental
Europe.or Scandinavia.

Yes. Unfortunately if the UK grid frequency drops too far, those
inverters feeding it from the undersea DC will disconnect, as will all
the wind farms and the solar panels, making everything worse.

It has already partially happened. Fortunately a large section of grid
could be isolated and blacked out saving the rest.



--
\"First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your
oppressors.\"
- George Orwell

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 12/11/2022 20:59, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 08:43:56 -0500, hubops@ccanoemail.com wrote:

System frequency is maintained within very tight tolerances -
- for a variety of reasons. Large thermal generators are quite
fussy about frequency.

Big generators are synchronous generators and the question is how do
you connect a large number in parallel (in the national grid) and how
properly share the generated power between them. The power delivered
depends on the _phase_difference_ between generators i.e. a constant
phase difference.

If there would be even a small _frequency_ difference between
generators that would cause a constantly variable phase difference. If
the phase difference would grow above 90 degrees, a catastrophic
situation would occur.

There cant be. In practice if the generator isn\'t being fed enough
torque, its phase lags and the grid drives the generator!

Note that this method of synchronizing generators several hundred
kilometers away from each other has been used for well over a century
without any other synchronization connection, just the power grid.

Its very simple. You run your generator with no load. match the phases
and connect to the grid. The generator is now locked to the grid as
surely as any other synchronous motor is.

Then when you push the steam into the turbines all that happens is that
the current rises and the phase advances slightly. Very slightly.

Messing up with the frequency would also mess up the phase protection
systems.

Don\'t think you really understand how it works.


--
In a Time of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act.

- George Orwell

 

[Martin Brown]

On 12/11/2022 14:18, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:37:24 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-11-12 14:11, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:05:02 -0000, John Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com
wrote:

On Saturday, 12 November 2022 at 12:08:20 UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Why would an invertor disconnect at lower frequency? It should be
able to match any frequency.

Its a regulatory requirement.

That is not an explanation.  There\'s no reason to disconnect.

It is to me... If I am the engineer designing or installing an inverter,
I have to follow the law and regulations.

No, you\'re *supposed* to.

And a puny domestic inverter will die horribly if it stays on too long.

Anyway, that doesn\'t explain why the regulation is there.  Surely an
invertor is capable of producing a sine wave at any frequency?

The semiconductor electronics are certainly capable of that but the
transformer will saturate and then get hot ultimately catching fire if
the frequency drops too low. Some US kit built for 60Hz only would get
awfully hot on UK 50Hz mains. A cheap and nasty US brand of shavers sold
mostly at Xmas relied on a 60Hz mechanical resonance for good measure.

Japanese kit can pretty much always be relied upon to work on either 50
or 60Hz since roughly half of their country is on each frequency.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[server]

On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 10:48:31 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 12/11/2022 21:22, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-11-12 15:17, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:39:00 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-11-12 14:22, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 17:55:38 -0000, rick
rick_hughes@_remove_btconnect.com> wrote:

On 06/11/2022 14:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why
don\'t we
just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop?
Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?

It is a legal requirement to keep the frequency at 50Hz over a set
period.
Therefore if it lags at any point they have to increase to catch up.

This was a legal requirement due to mains clocks.

But you can drop it to 49 for a while then put it up to 51 when there\'s
plenty power.

And do it in the entire Europe, simultaneously?

We\'re linked by DC, so no.

Wrong.

Yes, the European mainland grid whilst it is not all of Europe, is
synchronised.
I believe Norway, the UK and Ireland, are definietly totally separate.

There us a good map of the various synchronous networks in Europe in
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_grid_of_Continental_Europe

It should be noted that some areas in North Africa is connected to
UCTE. Denmark is interesting, Jutland is in UCTE while the islands
are in the Nordic net.

The CIS (Russia etc) has an own synchronous network.
The situation in Ukraine is currently unclear.

 

[Peeler]

On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 11:47:06 +0000, Martin Brown, another troll-feeding
senile shithead, bullshitted yet again:

No, you\'re *supposed* to.

And a puny domestic inverter will die horribly if it stays on too long.

LOL This troll-feeding senile retard STILL doesn\'t get with what kind of a
retarded troll he is dealing with! You are aware that this kind of idiotic
\"discussion\" can go on like that ad infinitum, lasting for several months
....until the troll gets institutionalized again? LOL

 

[Brian Gaff]

On the other hand of course there are nice ways to tell somebody they are a
dick head and bad ones designed to set off a chain reaction, and managers
need to learn the difference.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
\"Commander Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in message
newsp.1vdrfpermvhs6z@ryzen.home...

On Wed, 09 Nov 2022 16:19:09 -0000, Anthony Stewart
tony.sunnysky@gmail.com> wrote:

I was in emergency yesterday for a messy little rip skill saw cut using
the wrong tool for hedge trimming.

I use a reciprocating saw, this one:
https://www.1stmachineryauctions.com/media/lot/Lot-23-1-16.jpg

I had a brilliant conversation with a young lady (25) who said in the
last decade people have become so angry, they just need to slow down.
She was just re-tooled as a welder after being previously attacked by a
very big man and now had a blood clot with DVT from that previous
incident as a restaurant manager when she tried to intervene an attack
someone else. She said front-line customer providers have increasing
blackouts of quitting jobs from the stress.

Yeah, welding is much safer.

The analogy is power distribution with more green energy sources but lack
of storage or negative impedance voltage stabilizers causing instability
and war in Ukraine.

How is that analogous?

We must learn to avoid confrontations and insults and learn to be more
tolerant.

And learn if you\'re called a fucking cunt it\'s not the end of the world.

 

[Peeler]

On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 09:59:53 -0000, Brainless & Daft, the TV-watching and
pity-baiting senile \"blind\" mole, blathered again:

On the other hand of course there are nice ways to tell somebody they are a
dick head and bad ones designed to set off a chain reaction, and managers
need to learn the difference.
Brainless & Daft

Of course, you useless troll-feeding senile \"blind\" pest still need to learn
not to feed the troll. But then people are expected to pity a pity-baiting\"
TV-watching allegedly \"blind\" mole like you!

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 09/11/2022 19:48, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2022-11-09 20:10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2022 16:07:42 -0000, Anthony Stewart
tony.sunnysky@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, 6 November 2022 at 09:23:34 UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why
don\'t we just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to
drop? Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?

Most loads are energy-based with negative feedback (anything with a
sensor like a thermostat) and not power-based.  The countries like
Indo-Paki have always lived with brownouts which stimulated mass-sale
of \"voltage stabilizers\" which are negative incremental impedance
converters that cumulatively adds more instability.

As local demand current increases from voltage reduction and
tap-change to increase the voltage which causes more current and
voltage drop when accumulated by many users of further reduces
disti-load voltage, leading to unstable frequent daily blackouts.

So end-users of stabilizers increase grid instability.

Current (pun intended) customer outages are:
USA 60k (s. east+west coast)
Canada 14k
UK 1.5k
UA massive outage from RU destruction

Are you sure they cause instability?  They don\'t increase the power
used, they increase the current to compensate for the voltage drop.
Instability would only occur if the generators stalled, which happens
if the power drawn exceeds what they can provide.  If they\'re anything
like a car alternator, the same power can come out at any revs.

Think.

The generator(s) can not cope with the load, so the voltage drops. The
stabilizers at the clients rise the current and keep the power constant,
instead of decreasing, causing the generators to drop speed instead
(because they can not cope). Normally, when the speed drops below a
value, the generator disconnects. Cascade failure. General blackout,
unless some areas disconnect from the too loaded areas and isolate.

It gets worse.

A double whammy.
Now that reneawble so called energy is all the rage, together with
battery packs and undersea DC links, all that lot is not rotating
synchronous mass, it is actually electronic inverters that are designed
*to disconnect themselves* if the frequency drops.

So the net result of lowering the frequency is to remove not load, but
generating capacity.

At which point whole areas of the country trip out.



--
“The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to
fill the world with fools.”

Herbert Spencer

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 10:14:30 -0000, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 09/11/2022 19:48, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-11-09 20:10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2022 16:07:42 -0000, Anthony Stewart
tony.sunnysky@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, 6 November 2022 at 09:23:34 UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why
don\'t we just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to
drop? Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?

Most loads are energy-based with negative feedback (anything with a
sensor like a thermostat) and not power-based. The countries like
Indo-Paki have always lived with brownouts which stimulated mass-sale
of \"voltage stabilizers\" which are negative incremental impedance
converters that cumulatively adds more instability.

As local demand current increases from voltage reduction and
tap-change to increase the voltage which causes more current and
voltage drop when accumulated by many users of further reduces
disti-load voltage, leading to unstable frequent daily blackouts.

So end-users of stabilizers increase grid instability.

Current (pun intended) customer outages are:
USA 60k (s. east+west coast)
Canada 14k
UK 1.5k
UA massive outage from RU destruction

Are you sure they cause instability? They don\'t increase the power
used, they increase the current to compensate for the voltage drop.
Instability would only occur if the generators stalled, which happens
if the power drawn exceeds what they can provide. If they\'re anything
like a car alternator, the same power can come out at any revs.

Think.

The generator(s) can not cope with the load, so the voltage drops. The
stabilizers at the clients rise the current and keep the power constant,
instead of decreasing, causing the generators to drop speed instead
(because they can not cope). Normally, when the speed drops below a
value, the generator disconnects. Cascade failure. General blackout,
unless some areas disconnect from the too loaded areas and isolate.

It gets worse.

A double whammy.
Now that reneawble so called energy is all the rage, together with
battery packs and undersea DC links, all that lot is not rotating
synchronous mass, it is actually electronic inverters that are designed
*to disconnect themselves* if the frequency drops.

So the net result of lowering the frequency is to remove not load, but
generating capacity.

At which point whole areas of the country trip out.

Why would an invertor disconnect at lower frequency? It should be able to match any frequency.

 

[John Walliker]

On Saturday, 12 November 2022 at 12:08:20 UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 10:14:30 -0000, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 09/11/2022 19:48, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-11-09 20:10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2022 16:07:42 -0000, Anthony Stewart
tony.s...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, 6 November 2022 at 09:23:34 UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why
don\'t we just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to
drop? Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?

Most loads are energy-based with negative feedback (anything with a
sensor like a thermostat) and not power-based. The countries like
Indo-Paki have always lived with brownouts which stimulated mass-sale
of \"voltage stabilizers\" which are negative incremental impedance
converters that cumulatively adds more instability.

As local demand current increases from voltage reduction and
tap-change to increase the voltage which causes more current and
voltage drop when accumulated by many users of further reduces
disti-load voltage, leading to unstable frequent daily blackouts.

So end-users of stabilizers increase grid instability.

Current (pun intended) customer outages are:
USA 60k (s. east+west coast)
Canada 14k
UK 1.5k
UA massive outage from RU destruction

Are you sure they cause instability? They don\'t increase the power
used, they increase the current to compensate for the voltage drop.
Instability would only occur if the generators stalled, which happens
if the power drawn exceeds what they can provide. If they\'re anything
like a car alternator, the same power can come out at any revs.

Think.

The generator(s) can not cope with the load, so the voltage drops. The
stabilizers at the clients rise the current and keep the power constant,
instead of decreasing, causing the generators to drop speed instead
(because they can not cope). Normally, when the speed drops below a
value, the generator disconnects. Cascade failure. General blackout,
unless some areas disconnect from the too loaded areas and isolate.

It gets worse.

A double whammy.
Now that reneawble so called energy is all the rage, together with
battery packs and undersea DC links, all that lot is not rotating
synchronous mass, it is actually electronic inverters that are designed
*to disconnect themselves* if the frequency drops.

So the net result of lowering the frequency is to remove not load, but
generating capacity.

At which point whole areas of the country trip out.

Why would an invertor disconnect at lower frequency? It should be able to match any frequency.

Its a regulatory requirement.

John

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:05:02 -0000, John Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, 12 November 2022 at 12:08:20 UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 10:14:30 -0000, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 09/11/2022 19:48, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-11-09 20:10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2022 16:07:42 -0000, Anthony Stewart
tony.s...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, 6 November 2022 at 09:23:34 UTC-5, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why
don\'t we just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to
drop? Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?

Most loads are energy-based with negative feedback (anything with a
sensor like a thermostat) and not power-based. The countries like
Indo-Paki have always lived with brownouts which stimulated mass-sale
of \"voltage stabilizers\" which are negative incremental impedance
converters that cumulatively adds more instability.

As local demand current increases from voltage reduction and
tap-change to increase the voltage which causes more current and
voltage drop when accumulated by many users of further reduces
disti-load voltage, leading to unstable frequent daily blackouts.

So end-users of stabilizers increase grid instability.

Current (pun intended) customer outages are:
USA 60k (s. east+west coast)
Canada 14k
UK 1.5k
UA massive outage from RU destruction

Are you sure they cause instability? They don\'t increase the power
used, they increase the current to compensate for the voltage drop.
Instability would only occur if the generators stalled, which happens
if the power drawn exceeds what they can provide. If they\'re anything
like a car alternator, the same power can come out at any revs.

Think.

The generator(s) can not cope with the load, so the voltage drops. The
stabilizers at the clients rise the current and keep the power constant,
instead of decreasing, causing the generators to drop speed instead
(because they can not cope). Normally, when the speed drops below a
value, the generator disconnects. Cascade failure. General blackout,
unless some areas disconnect from the too loaded areas and isolate.

It gets worse.

A double whammy.
Now that reneawble so called energy is all the rage, together with
battery packs and undersea DC links, all that lot is not rotating
synchronous mass, it is actually electronic inverters that are designed
*to disconnect themselves* if the frequency drops.

So the net result of lowering the frequency is to remove not load, but
generating capacity.

At which point whole areas of the country trip out.

Why would an invertor disconnect at lower frequency? It should be able to match any frequency.

Its a regulatory requirement.

That is not an explanation. There\'s no reason to disconnect.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 17:55:38 -0000, rick <rick_hughes@_remove_btconnect.com> wrote:

On 06/11/2022 14:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why don\'t we
just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop?
Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?

It is a legal requirement to keep the frequency at 50Hz over a set period.
Therefore if it lags at any point they have to increase to catch up.

This was a legal requirement due to mains clocks.

But you can drop it to 49 for a while then put it up to 51 when there\'s plenty power.

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2022-11-12 14:22, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 17:55:38 -0000, rick
rick_hughes@_remove_btconnect.com> wrote:

On 06/11/2022 14:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why don\'t we
just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop?
Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?

It is a legal requirement to keep the frequency at 50Hz over a set
period.
Therefore if it lags at any point they have to increase to catch up.

This was a legal requirement due to mains clocks.

But you can drop it to 49 for a while then put it up to 51 when there\'s
plenty power.

And do it in the entire Europe, simultaneously?

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2022-11-12 14:11, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:05:02 -0000, John Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com
wrote:

On Saturday, 12 November 2022 at 12:08:20 UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 10:14:30 -0000, The Natural Philosopher
t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 09/11/2022 19:48, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-11-09 20:10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2022 16:07:42 -0000, Anthony Stewart
tony.s...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, 6 November 2022 at 09:23:34 UTC-5, Commander Kinsey
wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why
don\'t we just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to
drop? Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?

Most loads are energy-based with negative feedback (anything with a
sensor like a thermostat) and not power-based. The countries like
Indo-Paki have always lived with brownouts which stimulated
mass-sale
of \"voltage stabilizers\" which are negative incremental impedance
converters that cumulatively adds more instability.

As local demand current increases from voltage reduction and
tap-change to increase the voltage which causes more current and
voltage drop when accumulated by many users of further reduces
disti-load voltage, leading to unstable frequent daily blackouts.

So end-users of stabilizers increase grid instability.

Current (pun intended) customer outages are:
USA 60k (s. east+west coast)
Canada 14k
UK 1.5k
UA massive outage from RU destruction

Are you sure they cause instability? They don\'t increase the power
used, they increase the current to compensate for the voltage drop.
Instability would only occur if the generators stalled, which
happens
if the power drawn exceeds what they can provide. If they\'re
anything
like a car alternator, the same power can come out at any revs.

Think.

The generator(s) can not cope with the load, so the voltage drops.
The
stabilizers at the clients rise the current and keep the power
constant,
instead of decreasing, causing the generators to drop speed instead
(because they can not cope). Normally, when the speed drops below a
value, the generator disconnects. Cascade failure. General blackout,
unless some areas disconnect from the too loaded areas and isolate.

It gets worse.

A double whammy.
Now that reneawble so called energy is all the rage, together with
battery packs and undersea DC links, all that lot is not rotating
synchronous mass, it is actually electronic inverters that are
designed
*to disconnect themselves* if the frequency drops.

So the net result of lowering the frequency is to remove not load, but
generating capacity.

At which point whole areas of the country trip out.

Why would an invertor disconnect at lower frequency? It should be
able to match any frequency.

Its a regulatory requirement.

That is not an explanation.  There\'s no reason to disconnect.

It is to me... If I am the engineer designing or installing an inverter,
I have to follow the law and regulations.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[server]

On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:22:23 -0000, \"Commander Kinsey\"
<CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 17:55:38 -0000, rick <rick_hughes@_remove_btconnect.com> wrote:

On 06/11/2022 14:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why don\'t we
just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop?
Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?

It is a legal requirement to keep the frequency at 50Hz over a set period.
Therefore if it lags at any point they have to increase to catch up.

This was a legal requirement due to mains clocks.

But you can drop it to 49 for a while then put it up to 51 when there\'s plenty power.

System frequency is maintained within very tight tolerances -
- for a variety of reasons. Large thermal generators are quite
fussy about frequency. Alarms will sound at less-than .5 Hz +/- ;
automatic load shedding and/or generator rejection and other
significant control measures will happen at ~ 1 Hz. +/-
< or even less >.
System frequency variations are a sign of problems / instability /
unbalance etc. which can cascade and cause system separation
islanding and complete system shut-down.
The adjustments that are made to maintain clocks are in the
range of .05 Hz. .
John T.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:43:56 -0000, <hubops@ccanoemail.com> wrote:

On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:22:23 -0000, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 17:55:38 -0000, rick <rick_hughes@_remove_btconnect.com> wrote:

On 06/11/2022 14:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why don\'t we
just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop?
Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?

It is a legal requirement to keep the frequency at 50Hz over a set period.
Therefore if it lags at any point they have to increase to catch up.

This was a legal requirement due to mains clocks.

But you can drop it to 49 for a while then put it up to 51 when there\'s plenty power.


System frequency is maintained within very tight tolerances -
- for a variety of reasons. Large thermal generators are quite
fussy about frequency. Alarms will sound at less-than .5 Hz +/- ;
automatic load shedding and/or generator rejection and other
significant control measures will happen at ~ 1 Hz. +/-
or even less >.
System frequency variations are a sign of problems / instability /
unbalance etc. which can cascade and cause system separation
islanding and complete system shut-down.
The adjustments that are made to maintain clocks are in the
range of .05 Hz. .

Why are the generators fussy to 1%?

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:39:00 -0000, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-11-12 14:22, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 17:55:38 -0000, rick
rick_hughes@_remove_btconnect.com> wrote:

On 06/11/2022 14:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why don\'t we
just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop?
Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?

It is a legal requirement to keep the frequency at 50Hz over a set
period.
Therefore if it lags at any point they have to increase to catch up.

This was a legal requirement due to mains clocks.

But you can drop it to 49 for a while then put it up to 51 when there\'s
plenty power.

And do it in the entire Europe, simultaneously?

We\'re linked by DC, so no.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:37:24 -0000, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-11-12 14:11, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:05:02 -0000, John Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com
wrote:

On Saturday, 12 November 2022 at 12:08:20 UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 10:14:30 -0000, The Natural Philosopher
t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 09/11/2022 19:48, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-11-09 20:10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2022 16:07:42 -0000, Anthony Stewart
tony.s...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, 6 November 2022 at 09:23:34 UTC-5, Commander Kinsey
wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why
don\'t we just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to
drop? Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?

Most loads are energy-based with negative feedback (anything with a
sensor like a thermostat) and not power-based. The countries like
Indo-Paki have always lived with brownouts which stimulated
mass-sale
of \"voltage stabilizers\" which are negative incremental impedance
converters that cumulatively adds more instability.

As local demand current increases from voltage reduction and
tap-change to increase the voltage which causes more current and
voltage drop when accumulated by many users of further reduces
disti-load voltage, leading to unstable frequent daily blackouts.

So end-users of stabilizers increase grid instability.

Current (pun intended) customer outages are:
USA 60k (s. east+west coast)
Canada 14k
UK 1.5k
UA massive outage from RU destruction

Are you sure they cause instability? They don\'t increase the power
used, they increase the current to compensate for the voltage drop.
Instability would only occur if the generators stalled, which
happens
if the power drawn exceeds what they can provide. If they\'re
anything
like a car alternator, the same power can come out at any revs.

Think.

The generator(s) can not cope with the load, so the voltage drops.
The
stabilizers at the clients rise the current and keep the power
constant,
instead of decreasing, causing the generators to drop speed instead
(because they can not cope). Normally, when the speed drops below a
value, the generator disconnects. Cascade failure. General blackout,
unless some areas disconnect from the too loaded areas and isolate.

It gets worse.

A double whammy.
Now that reneawble so called energy is all the rage, together with
battery packs and undersea DC links, all that lot is not rotating
synchronous mass, it is actually electronic inverters that are
designed
*to disconnect themselves* if the frequency drops.

So the net result of lowering the frequency is to remove not load, but
generating capacity.

At which point whole areas of the country trip out.

Why would an invertor disconnect at lower frequency? It should be
able to match any frequency.

Its a regulatory requirement.

That is not an explanation. There\'s no reason to disconnect.

It is to me... If I am the engineer designing or installing an inverter,
I have to follow the law and regulations.

No, you\'re *supposed* to.

Anyway, that doesn\'t explain why the regulation is there. Surely an invertor is capable of producing a sine wave at any frequency?

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 11:47:06 -0000, Martin Brown <\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 12/11/2022 14:18, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:37:24 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-11-12 14:11, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:05:02 -0000, John Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com
wrote:

On Saturday, 12 November 2022 at 12:08:20 UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Why would an invertor disconnect at lower frequency? It should be
able to match any frequency.

Its a regulatory requirement.

That is not an explanation. There\'s no reason to disconnect.

It is to me... If I am the engineer designing or installing an inverter,
I have to follow the law and regulations.

No, you\'re *supposed* to.

And a puny domestic inverter will die horribly if it stays on too long.

Anyway, that doesn\'t explain why the regulation is there. Surely an
invertor is capable of producing a sine wave at any frequency?

The semiconductor electronics are certainly capable of that but the
transformer will saturate and then get hot ultimately catching fire if
the frequency drops too low. Some US kit built for 60Hz only would get
awfully hot on UK 50Hz mains. A cheap and nasty US brand of shavers sold
mostly at Xmas relied on a 60Hz mechanical resonance for good measure.

Japanese kit can pretty much always be relied upon to work on either 50
or 60Hz since roughly half of their country is on each frequency.

Then it must be possible to let it go way below 50Hz. The regulation\'s a bit daft if some can do it.