Can somone explain WHY positive first when jumping a car battery?...

[Slevin]

Peter wrote:

Overall, does ANYONE have ANY real data that tap water actually degrades a
car batter enough for someone to actually measure the results in 5 years?

I\'ve got a 6 year old U1 lawn tractor battery in the snow thrower and a
8 year old U1 in the zero turn. I use RO water to replenish both when
needed.

Off season, I throw a Battery Minder Plus 1510 on them so they don\'t
discharge/freeze/sulfate.

 

[John Robertson]

On 2023/01/17 8:33 p.m., mike wrote:

On 18-01-2023 09:40 Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> wrote:

In case there is any hydrogen gas that has developed in the battery
and may be still concentrated enough to burn, any spark from
completing the circuit should be made at some distance from the
battery. That is, but connecting the earth to some metal part of the
chassis, not to the battery terminal itself.

Thank you for trying to explain why they said here to connect + first.
https://blog.napacanada.com/en/how-to-safely-and-quickly-recharge-a-dead-car-battery/

Isn\'t there a spark no matter what cable is the last point to be connected?

The chassis is (usually) negative, which is why that is the first and
last contact point.

I\'m not disputing that since I\'m the one asking the question, but didn\'t
that article above say the opposite?
They said to connect a negative cable last to the chassis of the dead car.

The point is to first connect the positive lead to the battery positive,
and then the negative lead AWAY FROM THE BATTERY by connecting to the
engine metal. In that order for safety.

After the engine starts, then disconnect the negative lead that is AWAY
FROM THE BATTERY so any spark created at the disconnect point is
unlikely to cause the battery to explode if hydrogen gas was created.
Perhaps you left the jumpers connected for a few minutes while charging
the battery which leads to more hydrogen gas which makes a spark more
and more likely/dangerous as time goes on...

John :-#)#
--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John\'s Jukes Ltd.
#7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
(604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
\"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out.\"

 

[Mighty✅ Wannabe✅]

Frank wrote on 1/18/2023 12:01 PM:

On 1/18/2023 11:18 AM, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote:
Peter wrote on 1/18/2023 10:53 AM:
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
\"Deionized water and Distilled water are both types of extremely pure
water, but they are produced in two distinctly different ways.
Has anyone wondered whether the \"pure\" water will be \"leaching\" out the
chemistry of the lead:acid plates inside the battery?

Having owned a pool, all water chemistry tends toward equilibrium, and
dissolved salts (metal and a non metal) are no exception to the rule.

So the more pure the water, the more it will dissolve a bit of that
lead:acid compound that they slather on the plates between rubber
sheets.

Has anyone thought of that?


Have you thought of using corncob instead of toilet paper? Corncob is
cheap, natural and reusable. LOL!!!

Although deionized water is 6 times more expensive than distilled
water, but one gallon goes a long way.

Use deionized water if you want the best for your lead-acid battery.



Think those costs are off with two different sources and sizes.

Google sez this:

\"However, in general, distilled water is more expensive than deionized
water. This is because it takes more time and energy to produce
distilled water, and it also requires special equipment that not all
companies have.\"

When I worked in the lab we had a distilled water line to every bench
but it was replaced by deionized water to save cost.

Been decades since I had a car battery that needed water but I am
hearing it is better to put distilled or demineralized water in your
car radiator if needed as minerals are bad there too.

Distilled water is good enough for being devoid of \"almost\" all
impurities except some ions. Distilled water is still quite conductive
if you test a glass of distilled water with a multimeter.

Deionized water for home use is done with a canister of resin beads
inline with your water pipe. The water is passed through the canister
that can capture most, but not all the ions. Since the resin beads has
charges that can capture only ionized particles in the water, other
impurities in the water that have no electrical charges will not be
captured.

Therefore, as I have explained before, the highest grade of pure water
is deionized water made from distilled water.

Theoretically pure H2O does not conduct electricity, but in reality only
deionized water made from distilled water can approached that
theoretical state of being purely dielectric.

https://puretecwater.com/deionized-water/what-is-deionized-water

 

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 18 Jan 2023 16:21:25 +0000, Peter
<occassionally-confused@nospam.co.uk> wrote:

Which is the correct line of reasoning?

(A) Put the negative on the donor car last because that spark is least
likely to ignite hydrogen gases from the discharged battery or
(B) Put the positive on the donor car last because you have less chance
of accidentally shorting the circuit & the donor has less outgassing

Which is more logical?

There is also C: Put the positive on the recipient car last because you
have less chance of accidentally shorting the circuit & there is no
hydrogen there.

Of A and B, they might both be logoical but B is more important.
Shorting the donor battery, even at the other car, is going to cause a
lot more trouble, cause a lot more damage, than hydrogen gases. That\'s
why B is recommended.

Usually the guy helping me is also putting the cables on his car, but I
still look at them before I finish my car. For various reason, I\'ve
had many dead batteries. Once a pretty girl stopped to give my car
battery a jump.

 

[ehsjr]

On 1/18/2023 10:28 AM, Peter wrote:

hubops@ccanoemail.com> wrote:
I always did positive first. I will switch!

Think it out first - then decide.

I\'m thinking... I\'m thinking... I\'m trying to think this thing out.
I don\'t think it matters all that much which cable goes first or last.

Yes it does. First, set any thoughts of sparks causing an explosion
aside. That\'s a *very* low probability occurrence as compared to the
real reason. Unfortunately, a lot of people focus on the sparks
issue and don\'t mention the real reason. And please note that the real
reason also involves sparks.

The real reason has been mentioned earlier, but apparently
needs to be repeated, maybe with more detail, so here goes.
The real reason: there is a huge area of metal in the engine
compartment, the car bumpers and fenders (if metal) etc. It
is very easy to inadvertently touch the bare end of a jumper
cable to that bare metal. If the negative jumper cable is
connected first, and you\'re connecting the positive cable
to the bad battery, you\'ll get a short circuit with that
inadvertent touch, powerful sparks, a possible tack weld of
the jumper cable, and a very bad day. (Possible fire, burns,
dead battery, ruined cables, etc.)

If you connect the positive jumper first, the end of the cable
CANNOT cause a short when it touches ANY bare metal in the
car receiving the jump.

The proper procedure:
1 Put the cars close together but NOT touching.
2 Stretch the cable out so the bare positive end
is away from the car with the good battery.
3 Connect the positive cable to the positive of
the good battery
4 Connect the other end of the positive cable to
the positive of the bad battery.
5 Connect the negative cable to the good battery
6 Connect the other end to the other car battery
negative, or to the other car engine compartment
metal where you can get a good solid mechanical
clamping spot.
7 When finished do the above in reverse order

The above recognizes - and mitigates - the possibility
of sparks, but focuses on the real potential hazard:
short circuit. I wish all this talk of exploding
hydrogen gas had never appeared, because it hides
the extremely more probable event of a short circuit,
which, of itself, creates a more powerful spark than
connecting (or disconnecting) a jumper cable to a
battery.

Ed

As far as I can think about it, the last connection is the one that sparks.
And that means the first disconnection is the one that sparks.

Since you don\'t want that spark to be near any concentration of flammable
hydrogen gas, I guess the theory that I\'ll concoct is you want the negative
cable to be as far from that hydrogen gas as possible.

That makes it the negative cable to be the last to connect.
And the first to disconnect.

Now, if the theory is to proceed accordingly, we have to decide which
battery has the most chance of having excess hydrogen gas.

The answer likely is neither will have any, but if we have to choose, which
battery will have more hydrogen outgassing?

(A) The donor battery (which is likely already topped off) or
(B) The recipient battery (which is likely taking the greater charge)

The answer seems, to me, to be neither battery will have excess hydrogen
gas, but if I was forced to choose, I guess the battery being charged the
most has the most excess hydrogen gas, which would clearly be the donor.

All this is just \"thinking it out\" so tell me if I\'m wrong so I learn from
your expertise (the royal your that is, as everyone has something to say).

 

[Peter]

Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:

Has anyone thought of that?

Have you thought of using corncob instead of toilet paper? Corncob is
cheap, natural and reusable. LOL!!!

I haven\'t used toilet paper in years.

There\'s no need for TP for anyone who is retired and lives at home most of
the time because they can just use this which works wonders for cleaning.
https://www.amazon.com/Diverter-Portable-Cleaning-Attachment-Polished/dp/B097G9BVQ1/

And no, you dirty minded pervert (I say that jokingly because I know what
you\'re thinking when you saw it) it doesn\'t go inside of anything.

It stays on the outside.
And it\'s warm water.

For that quick and easy fifty buck investment, you never need to buy toilet
paper for the rest of your life, and, better yet, you\'re cleaner (by far)
than you would have been had you used toilet paper in the first place.

These things should be standard attachments, IMHO, in all bathrooms.

And yes, I recycle the humanure too. And the 1:1:1 NPK urine.
Along with it goes all the kitchen scraps (nothing goes down the drain).

Brown, then green, then wood chips, then brown, green, chips anew.
Repeat until the closed bucket is full.
Then fertilize outside as needed.

And yes, the fruit trees are all fertilized by humanure/urine/scraps.
And the process starts anew.

Although deionized water is 6 times more expensive than distilled water,
but one gallon goes a long way.

I\'m not disagreeing but I am pointing out the fewer the ionic
concentration, it seems logical the water will demineralize the battery
just as it does with a pool.

> Use deionized water if you want the best for your lead-acid battery.

The less saturated the water is, the more it demineralizes the battery. The
CSI or LSI is a very common issue with pools demineralizing for example.

For a pool, we are careful to manage the calcium saturation index (often
specifically the Langelier Saturation Index) to as near to the zero
crossing point as we can, keeping in mind it changes due to a half dozen
key components such as the temperature, pH, total carbonate alkalinity,
calcium hardness, cyanuric acid level (for outdoor pools), total dissolved
solids (particularly high for salt water chlorine generator pools) & borate
(if any).

Why wouldn\'t demineralized water demineralize a battery?

Bear in mind I don\'t;t know the answer - I\'m just looking at the problem
set logically.

 

[Peter]

Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:

Therefore, as I have explained before, the highest grade of pure water
is deionized water made from distilled water.

What happens to the dissolved carbon dioxide concentration of that \"highest
grade of pure water\" once you open the jug & leave it for a while at STP?

Henrys Law says it will reach equilibrium based on the partial pressure of
the carbon dioxide in the air.

That ionic carbon dioxide dissolves and turns into carbonic acid.

pH about 5.6

It\'s only \"pure water\" for an instant.

 

[Mighty✅ Wannabe✅]

Peter wrote on 1/18/2023 3:46 PM:

Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:

Has anyone thought of that?
Have you thought of using corncob instead of toilet paper? Corncob is
cheap, natural and reusable. LOL!!!
I haven\'t used toilet paper in years.

There\'s no need for TP for anyone who is retired and lives at home most of
the time because they can just use this which works wonders for cleaning.
https://www.amazon.com/Diverter-Portable-Cleaning-Attachment-Polished/dp/B097G9BVQ1/

It\'s a good contraption, much like a hand held bidet.

And no, you dirty minded pervert (I say that jokingly because I know what
you\'re thinking when you saw it) it doesn\'t go inside of anything.

It stays on the outside.
And it\'s warm water.

For that quick and easy fifty buck investment, you never need to buy toilet
paper for the rest of your life, and, better yet, you\'re cleaner (by far)
than you would have been had you used toilet paper in the first place.

These things should be standard attachments, IMHO, in all bathrooms.

It is too intimate to be shared, for hygienic reasons, unless everyone
has a personal nozzle.

And yes, I recycle the humanure too. And the 1:1:1 NPK urine.
Along with it goes all the kitchen scraps (nothing goes down the drain).

Do you pee and poo in a plastic urinal like they use in a hospital bed?

Brown, then green, then wood chips, then brown, green, chips anew.
Repeat until the closed bucket is full.
Then fertilize outside as needed.

And yes, the fruit trees are all fertilized by humanure/urine/scraps.
And the process starts anew.

Although deionized water is 6 times more expensive than distilled water,
but one gallon goes a long way.
I\'m not disagreeing but I am pointing out the fewer the ionic
concentration, it seems logical the water will demineralize the battery
just as it does with a pool.

A car battery is not like your pool. The electrolyte in a car battery
should be dilute sulfuric acid and nothing else. The car battery
generates electricity by a reversible electro-chemical process.
Impurities will cause internal discharge and will shorten the time that
a battery can hold the charge.

Each cell in a lead-acid battery contains many interleave layers of
positive and negative electrode, and many thin membranes of fibre glass
hold the electrolyte between the electrodes. There is an air vent but
the environment inside the cell is pretty much isolated from the outside
world.

Use deionized water if you want the best for your lead-acid battery.
The less saturated the water is, the more it demineralizes the battery. The
CSI or LSI is a very common issue with pools demineralizing for example.

For a pool, we are careful to manage the calcium saturation index (often
specifically the Langelier Saturation Index) to as near to the zero
crossing point as we can, keeping in mind it changes due to a half dozen
key components such as the temperature, pH, total carbonate alkalinity,
calcium hardness, cyanuric acid level (for outdoor pools), total dissolved
solids (particularly high for salt water chlorine generator pools) & borate
(if any).

Why wouldn\'t demineralized water demineralize a battery?

Because a car battery doesn\'t work like a pool. Can your pool generate
electricity? Does you pool look like the inside of a car battery?

Bear in mind I don\'t;t know the answer - I\'m just looking at the problem
set logically.

 

[Peter]

Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:

There\'s no need for TP for anyone who is retired and lives at home most of
the time because they can just use this which works wonders for cleaning.
https://www.amazon.com/Diverter-Portable-Cleaning-Attachment-Polished/dp/B097G9BVQ1/

It\'s a good contraption, much like a hand held bidet.

I got the idea from this newsgroup something like a decade or so ago.
https://www.amazon.com/Bathroom-Handheld-78-7inch-Shower-Cleaning/dp/B096RG4XBW/

They had fitted a typical garden hose attachment instead of that one.
https://www.amazon.com/Twinkle-Star-Adjustable-Sweeper-TWIS3231/dp/B07D3TBSV7/

I tried it but it was too heavy, especially with the ball valve attached.
https://www.amazon.com/Worlds-Best-Water-Shut-Valve/dp/B06XKR2PZX

It was heavier than the diverter valve was designed to handle so I switched
to this instead, which gets its water volume control from the main valve.
https://www.amazon.com/Bathroom-Handheld-Showerhead-Vaginal-Cleaning/dp/B077RXHSC9/

I know what you\'re thinking and I\'m sure it\'s used for that, but for me,
it\'s all about keeping it on the outside and making sure things are clean.

You\'ll never need toilet paper ever again and you\'ll be cleaner as a
result. During Covid, I was wondering why anyone hoarded TP in the first
place.

How does Covid make you need more TP?

These things should be standard attachments, IMHO, in all bathrooms.

It is too intimate to be shared, for hygienic reasons, unless everyone
has a personal nozzle.

Good point of view, where I live alone but it doesn\'t touch the body.

And yes, I recycle the humanure too. And the 1:1:1 NPK urine.
Along with it goes all the kitchen scraps (nothing goes down the drain).

Do you pee and poo in a plastic urinal like they use in a hospital bed?

How did you know?

I used to use this but it was just too difficult to keep clean.
https://www.amazon.com/Hand-held-Portable-Capacity-Leak-Proof-Wheelchair/dp/B07VMPYLQ6/

Plus, the only thing getting bigger down there is my prostate, which is
wreaking havoc with the drainage hydraulics, where I\'ll say no more.

Three of these a night tend to be simpler and work better on your side
while in bed, with one more kept by the office computer because it\'s
emptied more easily into the five gallon containment bucket (which is a
re-used Costco 40 pound jug of soybean oil, or whatever size it is).
https://www.amazon.com/Portable-Urinal-Bottle-Elderly-Plastic/dp/B08DXKKC2R/

It\'s really good for the environment NOT to make nitrogen fertilizer at a
factory because the nitrogen in the NPK consumes inordinate amounts of
heat.

For the environment, I collect the thicker stuff in one of these.
https://www.amazon.com/YUMSUM-Stable-Countoured-Bed-Bound-Patient/dp/B074G3P9BB/

The only problem with any of this is keeping things clean, but consider it
a tradeoff as I never have to clean the toilets in the house ever again.

It feels good to give back to the soil, where I combine kitchen scraps,
wood chips, and humanure in layers in a re-used Costco dichlor bucket with
the cap held tightly as the bigger corvids fly around where I\'ve kept it, I
guess they\'re thinking a dead animal lives there or something.

I don\'t think I waste anything as I burn all paper in the fireplace along
with the wood in the wood-burning stove, so it\'s only plastic that I have
to place in the recycling bins about once every two months per bucket.

A car battery is not like your pool. The electrolyte in a car battery
should be dilute sulfuric acid and nothing else. The car battery
generates electricity by a reversible electro-chemical process.
Impurities will cause internal discharge and will shorten the time that
a battery can hold the charge.

I\'m not disagreeing with you as I said I didn\'t know from the start.
I do know pool chemistry though - but not battery chemistry.
At least not yet.
But keep talking and I can learn from you which is a good thing.

Each cell in a lead-acid battery contains many interleave layers of
positive and negative electrode, and many thin membranes of fibre glass
hold the electrolyte between the electrodes. There is an air vent but
the environment inside the cell is pretty much isolated from the outside
world.

I don\'t think I\'ve had to add water to a car battery in years. I guess it\'s
done though as the caps come off (two sets of three).

Why wouldn\'t demineralized water demineralize a battery?

Because a car battery doesn\'t work like a pool. Can your pool generate
electricity? Does you pool look like the inside of a car battery?

You got me there.

The pool chemistry is simple because pH doesn\'t matter for sanitation where
I just pour liquid chlorine into the pool to maintain the chlorine level at
least 7.5% of the cyanuric acid level. That\'s it for sanitation.

For saturation, there are a half dozen factors, only half of which do you
have any amount of control over, the other half (like temperature) are out
of your hands so it\'s a game of matching the saturation index with the
expected temperatures combined with the dilution when it rains and the
concentration when it evaporates and you have to fill with city water.

I would think battery chemistry has the same \"type\" of equilibrium
constants (Pka is what we deal with in pool chemistry) though.

Just different chemicals and more redox stuff.

 

[Rod Speed]

On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 21:39:09 +1100, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid>
wrote:

On 2023-01-18 04:35, mike wrote:
When I looked up how to jump a car battery, they tell you WHAT to do,
but
not WHY, which is infuriating as it\'s harder to remember unless you know
why.

https://blog.napacanada.com/en/how-to-safely-and-quickly-recharge-a-dead-car-battery/
First they say the cars shouldn\'t touch.
Why?
Then they said positive first.
Why?

Because of the danger of touching metal with the positive lead when the
two negatives are connected.

This assumes the car has negative ground, although a positive ground is
very rare in cars nowdays.

Once started, they say remove the negative cable first.
Why?

Same reason.

Here, they say adding water damages the batteries. Why?
https://www.uetechnologies.com/add-water-to-battery-before-or-after-charging/

I don\'t know about damaging, but you dilute the existing liquid, will
not have the proper proportions when you start charging immediately.
Better wait.

However, if the plates are partially out of the liquid, don\'t attempt to
charge, fill first. The battery may be dead in any case, though.


Also, read about bubbles below.


And how often do you need to add water?

You find that from observation of how fast the level goes down.

This says to add water after every ten charging cycles?
Isn\'t that like every ten days?
And how do you know how much to add?

There is typically \"something\" to show you the level.

They say add water to the \"splash plate\" but what is that?

As you add water, the level touches the rim of a \"tube\" and the
reflection of the light in the water surface suddenly changes shape.
Stop there.

They say the six chambers produce 2.1 volts each for 12.6 volts?
Isn\'t it more than that?

Depends on charge level.

They say adding water before charging will make it overflow.
Does it really change the water level that much from dead to charged?

Gas bubbles form inside when charging. If you do fast charging, they can
be big. Those bubbles inside the liquid make its volume bigger, and it
may overflow. A car battery is designed considering that the vibrations
of the motor will release the bubbles fast, before they become big. A
battery designed to be on a room has more space between plates so that
the bubbles release easier without vibrations.

So, if the level is too low (close to the plates) add some water, but
not the maximum.

And what happens if you tap water instead of distilled?

Damage.

In chemistry, you only use distilled water, for every reaction.

Wrong. And my formal qualifications are in chemistry.

> You do not want extra chemicals.

Depends on what you are doing. Mostly it doesn\'t matter.

 

[Peeler]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 09:54:13 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin\'s latest trollshit unread>

--
Tim+ about trolling Rodent Speed:
He is by far the most persistent troll who seems to be able to get under the
skin of folk who really should know better. Since when did arguing with a
troll ever achieve anything (beyond giving the troll pleasure)?
MID: <1421057667.659518815.743467.tim.downie-gmail.com@news.individual.net>

 

[Rod Speed]

On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 23:09:56 +1100, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <.> wrote:

Carlos E.R. wrote on 1/18/2023 5:19 AM:
On 2023-01-18 05:34, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote:
De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.

The reverse.


De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.

Nope.

> https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/

That\'s the operation flogging de-ionizers

Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
Here are some similarities and differences that are key to understanding
them:

Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.

Deionized water is purer than distilled water.

Wrong.

> Distilled water conducts electricity,

Wrong.

> while deionized water does not.

Separate matter entirely to which has other than H2O in it.

 

[Rod Speed]

On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 23:36:28 +1100, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 18 Jan 2023 07:09:56 -0500, Mighty? Wannabe?
@.> wrote:

Carlos E.R. wrote on 1/18/2023 5:19 AM:
On 2023-01-18 05:34, Mighty? Wannabe? wrote:
De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.

The reverse.


De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.

https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/

Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
Here are some similarities and differences that are key to understanding
them:

Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.

Deionized water is purer than distilled water.

Distilled water conducts electricity, while deionized water does
not.

Indeed it does say that, but it doesn\'t give much in the way of reasons.
Pretty much proof by assertion.

OTOH, my googling yielded contradictory results!!!!

I haven\'t read them yet, or looked for tie breakers, becusae I think
it\'s worth reporting the mere fact that it has contradictory results:

Here is my search
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=deionized+water+vs+distilled+water+for+batteries
and, not counting the Q&A part, these are the first two hits.

Water that has been purified of dissolved minerals and salts through a
process called deionization is recognized as the best choice for
maintaining lead-acid batteries. Deionization eliminates more impurities
from water than distillation or conventional filters.
The Perfect “Solution” for Maintaining Your Lead-Acid Batteries
https://www.crown.com › articles › energy-management

vs.

Can you use Deionized Water in Batteries?
https://www.phlsci.com › news › articles › can-you-use-...
Oct 12, 2021 — Whilst deionized water is not as pure as distilled water;
it is perfect for industrial battery watering. It is a cost-effective
method


Plainlly, the second article was written by a Brit, or someone from the
Commonwealth. As an American, I should favor the first article, but I
don\'t, so I will control my patriotism and wait for more information.


If the only ions in distilled but not de-ionized water are hyrogen,
oxygen

Those arent ions, they are gasses.

> and/or hydroxide ions,

You don\'t get those in distilled water.

I don\'t see how they would cause a probem
in a battery.

They aren\'t.

Doesn\'t any water in a lead acid battery ionize into
those very ions?

It decomposes into gasses when overcharged.

And how could there be other ions than those three in
distilled water? Maybe the answer is in the articles, but I\'ve already
spent a lot of time on this thread, so I\'ll either wait until you guys
resolve this, or I\'ll come back later with renewed energy.

 

[Rod Speed]

On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 23:45:07 +1100, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <.> wrote:

Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote on 1/18/2023 7:09 AM:
Carlos E.R. wrote on 1/18/2023 5:19 AM:
On 2023-01-18 05:34, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote:
De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.

The reverse.


De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.

https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/

Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
Here are some similarities and differences that are key to
understanding them:

Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.

Deionized water is purer than distilled water.

Distilled water conducts electricity, while deionized water does
not.




People have the wrong impression that \"distilled water\" is the purest
form of water but that\'s not true.

Fraid so.

Common distilled water is obtained by boiling water and collecting the
condensed steam. The condensed steam is not 100% pure H2O because there
are chemicals in the water with lower boiling point than H2O that will
come over in the distillation process.

That,s not how distillation works. The lower boiling point liquids come
over first, before the water being distilled has reached boiling point.

The best way to get deionized water is to start the deionization process
with distilled water because there will be a lot less impurities to
remove, and distilled water is cheap and easy to get.

Deionised water is even cheaper and easier to get.

 

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 01:40:22 +1100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 07:09:56 -0500, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote:

https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/

I\'ll see your URL and raise you two:

https://www.uswatersystems.com/deionized-water-vs-distilled-water

\"Deionized water and Distilled water are both types of extremely pure
water, but they are produced in two distinctly different ways. Depending
on the source water, distilled water can be more pure than deionized
water
– but that doesn\'t necessarily mean that it\'s better. There are pros and
cons to using deionized water vs. distilled water for particular
processes, particularly when it comes to cost and efficiency.\"

https://americanhomewater.com/what-is-deionized-water-and-what-is-it-used-
for/

\"The main difference between these two types of water comes in the form
of
purity. Deionized water is the purest form of water available

No it is not,

and, in some
cases, can be considered a type of synthetic water.

Even sillier.

However, distilled
water does not contain any impurities

And that conflicts with its previous claim.

and therefore has fewer contaminants
than deionized water.\"

It\'s a toss.

Nope, not in some situations like chemistry and medicine.

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-01-18 13:36, micky wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 18 Jan 2023 07:09:56 -0500, Mighty? Wannabe?
@.> wrote:

Carlos E.R. wrote on 1/18/2023 5:19 AM:
On 2023-01-18 05:34, Mighty? Wannabe? wrote:
De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.

The reverse.


De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.

https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/

Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
Here are some similarities and differences that are key to understanding
them:

    Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.

Bullshit, don\'t try that, you could die.

Why can\'t we drink distilled water?

Drinking distilled water creates health problems from the lack of
essential nutrients and causes dehydration. Drinking distilled water is
never a bad idea because the body cannot absorb dissolved minerals from
water into the tissue.Sep 29, 2022

What Is Distilled Water and Is It Safe to Drink?
https://www.freshwatersystems.com › blogs › blog › is-...

https://www.freshwatersystems.com/blogs/blog/is-distilled-water-safe-to-drink

    Deionized water is purer than distilled water.

    Distilled water conducts electricity, while deionized water does not.

Indeed it does say that, but it doesn\'t give much in the way of reasons.
Pretty much proof by assertion.

OTOH, my googling yielded contradictory results!!!!

I haven\'t read them yet, or looked for tie breakers, becusae I think
it\'s worth reporting the mere fact that it has contradictory results:

Here is my search
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=deionized+water+vs+distilled+water+for+batteries
and, not counting the Q&A part, these are the first two hits.

Water that has been purified of dissolved minerals and salts through a
process called deionization is recognized as the best choice for
maintaining lead-acid batteries. Deionization eliminates more impurities
from water than distillation or conventional filters.
The Perfect “Solution” for Maintaining Your Lead-Acid Batteries
https://www.crown.com › articles › energy-management

vs.

Can you use Deionized Water in Batteries?
https://www.phlsci.com › news › articles › can-you-use-...
Oct 12, 2021 — Whilst deionized water is not as pure as distilled water;
it is perfect for industrial battery watering. It is a cost-effective
method


Plainlly, the second article was written by a Brit, or someone from the
Commonwealth. As an American, I should favor the first article, but I
don\'t, so I will control my patriotism and wait for more information.


If the only ions in distilled but not de-ionized water are hyrogen,
oxygen and/or hydroxide ions, I don\'t see how they would cause a probem
in a battery. Doesn\'t any water in a lead acid battery ionize into
those very ions? And how could there be other ions than those three in
distilled water? Maybe the answer is in the articles, but I\'ve already
spent a lot of time on this thread, so I\'ll either wait until you guys
resolve this, or I\'ll come back later with renewed energy.

<https://www.smacgigworld.com/blog/differences-between-deionized-water-and-distilled-water.php>


Distillation:

Advantages

Removes contaminants to a large extent
Reusable
Lower cost

Limitations

Some contaminants that have the same boiling point as water is
vaporized with water can be carried into the condensate
Careful maintenance is required to ensure purity
Requires more heat / electrical energy to boil the water.
Requires large space on the counter
Slower process



Deionization:

Advantages

Effectively remove dissolved ions in the water.
Able to regenerate resin beds
Low-cost investment

Limitation

Do not remove particles or bacteria.
Operating costs increase when used for the long term.




--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 02:16:22 +1100, Peter
<occassionally-confused@nospam.co.uk> wrote:

MightyWannabe wrote:

There is a good possibility the rectifiers (diodes) in your alternator
could fry because it is recommended that your car be running when you
jump start another car. The rectifiers of your car is supplying electric
current from the alternator and can overload due to the jump start
operation.

In the recipient car, when the engine finally starts, I was told since I
was young that the best way to \"absorb\" some of the excess current in the
first few seconds is for the recipient to turn on the headlights.

This seems counterintuitive from the recipient\'s standpoint in terms of
\"using\" current but the theory is that the \"B\" sense circuit of the
alternator (which is just a coil of wire in the end) senses a \"very low\"
battery so it tells the alternator to put out a \"very high\" current,
whose
initial burst could (\"they say\") fry the rectifying wheatstone diodes.

That makes no sense because it would happen with any very
poor battery which does eventually manage to start the engine.

> Maybe it makes sense to the electronics folks

Nope.

who are asked to comment.

There is also the possibility of the voltage drop so low momentarily
that your car stereo\'s anti-theft system kicks in, and you\'ll have to go
back to the car dealership to enter the anti-theft code. The anti-theft
system detects the zero voltage when it is ripped from the dashboard.

But what happens each time you replace the battery every few years?

The best way to change batterys is to keep supplying 12V with the original
battery removed until the new battery has been connected. Thats what the
pros do to avoid the antitheft system kicking in.

 

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 02:27:04 +1100, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <.> wrote:

rbowman wrote on 1/18/2023 9:40 AM:
On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 07:09:56 -0500, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote:

https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/
I\'ll see your URL and raise you two:

https://www.uswatersystems.com/deionized-water-vs-distilled-water

\"Deionized water and Distilled water are both types of extremely pure
water, but they are produced in two distinctly different ways. Depending
on the source water, distilled water can be more pure than deionized
water
– but that doesn\'t necessarily mean that it\'s better. There are pros and
cons to using deionized water vs. distilled water for particular
processes, particularly when it comes to cost and efficiency.\"

https://americanhomewater.com/what-is-deionized-water-and-what-is-it-used-
for/

\"The main difference between these two types of water comes in the form
of
purity. Deionized water is the purest form of water available and, in
some
cases, can be considered a type of synthetic water. However, distilled
water does not contain any impurities and therefore has fewer
contaminants
than deionized water.\"

It\'s a toss.


\"However, distilled water does not contain any impurities\" is definitely
a misconception. The writer of that article is definitely babbling
nonsense without any real knowledge.

I am a self-made expert in distillation.

But don\'t understand the basics.

I own two expensive fractional distillation columns, and I currently own
about 5 counter-top water distillers. If you know how to use the digital
counter-top water distiller in an inventive way, you can do fractional
distillation professionally in your kitchen.

Fractional distillation column:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractionating_column

When water boils, it is not just pure H2O that is coming out in the
steam. All other minor solutes in the water with boiling point lower
than water will also come out in the steam.

The reality is that there arent any significant amounts
of lower boiling point liquids in normal tap water and
certainly none that are a problem in a vehicle battery.

Besides that, some of the light weight microscopic impurities in the
water will also \"ride\" the steam and come out of the boiling water.

Ditto with those.

You can do very accurate fractional distillation using a digital
counter-top water distiller from Amazon. You can set the boiling
temperature digitally, and theoretically you can separately a mixture of
many solutes with differently boiling points by distilling at different
temperatures.

My own expertise is electrical engineering but I am, in a way, a crazy
scientist.

But don\'t understand the basics.

<reams of stuff irrelevant to water for vehicle batterys flushed>

 

[Frank]

On 1/18/2023 5:59 PM, Rod Speed wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 23:09:56 +1100, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <.> wrote:

Carlos E.R. wrote on 1/18/2023 5:19 AM:
On 2023-01-18 05:34, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote:
De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.

The reverse.


De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.

Nope.

https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/

That\'s the operation flogging de-ionizers

Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
Here are some similarities and differences that are key to
understanding them:

     Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.

     Deionized water is purer than distilled water.

Wrong.

     Distilled water conducts electricity,

Wrong.

while deionized water does not.

Separate matter entirely to which has other than H2O in it.

It appears wrong to me too. Do not know where these claims came from
except maybe somebody trying to tout their own system.

 

[Frank]

On 1/18/2023 5:54 PM, Rod Speed wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 21:39:09 +1100, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-01-18 04:35, mike wrote:
When I looked up how to jump a car battery, they tell you WHAT to do,
but
not WHY, which is infuriating as it\'s harder to remember unless you know
why.
 https://blog.napacanada.com/en/how-to-safely-and-quickly-recharge-a-dead-car-battery/
 First they say the cars shouldn\'t touch.
Why?
 Then they said positive first.
Why?

Because of the danger of touching metal with the positive lead when
the two negatives are connected.

This assumes the car has negative ground, although a positive ground
is very rare in cars nowdays.

 Once started, they say remove the negative cable first.
Why?

Same reason.

  Here, they say adding water damages the batteries. Why?
https://www.uetechnologies.com/add-water-to-battery-before-or-after-charging/

I don\'t know about damaging, but you dilute the existing liquid, will
not have the proper proportions when you start charging immediately.
Better wait.

However, if the plates are partially out of the liquid, don\'t attempt
to charge, fill first. The battery may be dead in any case, though.


Also, read about bubbles below.


 And how often do you need to add water?

You find that from observation of how fast the level goes down.

This says to add water after every ten charging cycles?
Isn\'t that like every ten days?
 And how do you know how much to add?

There is typically \"something\" to show you the level.

They say add water to the \"splash plate\" but what is that?

As you add water, the level touches the rim of a \"tube\" and the
reflection of the light in the water surface suddenly changes shape.
Stop there.

 They say the six chambers produce 2.1 volts each for 12.6 volts?
Isn\'t it more than that?

Depends on charge level.

 They say adding water before charging will make it overflow.
Does it really change the water level that much from dead to charged?

Gas bubbles form inside when charging. If you do fast charging, they
can be big. Those bubbles inside the liquid make its volume bigger,
and it may overflow. A car battery is designed considering that the
vibrations of the motor will release the bubbles fast, before they
become big. A battery designed to be on a room has more space between
plates so that the bubbles release easier without vibrations.

So, if the level is too low (close to the plates) add some water, but
not the maximum.

 And what happens if you tap water instead of distilled?

Damage.

In chemistry, you only use distilled water, for every reaction.

Wrong. And my formal qualifications are in chemistry.

You do not want extra chemicals.

Depends on what you are doing. Mostly it doesn\'t matter.

I am a retired chemist and we are in agreement.