Can somone explain WHY positive first when jumping a car battery?...

[Mighty✅ Wannabe✅]

Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote on 1/18/2023 7:09 AM:

Carlos E.R. wrote on 1/18/2023 5:19 AM:
On 2023-01-18 05:34, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote:
De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.

The reverse.


De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.

https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/

Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
Here are some similarities and differences that are key to
understanding them:

    Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.

    Deionized water is purer than distilled water.

    Distilled water conducts electricity, while deionized water does not.

People have the wrong impression that \"distilled water\" is the purest
form of water but that\'s not true. Common distilled water is obtained by
boiling water and collecting the condensed steam. The condensed steam is
not 100% pure H2O because there are chemicals in the water with lower
boiling point than H2O that will come over in the distillation process.

The best way to get deionized water is to start the deionization process
with distilled water because there will be a lot less impurities to
remove, and distilled water is cheap and easy to get.

 

[Mighty✅ Wannabe✅]

micky wrote on 1/18/2023 7:36 AM:

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 18 Jan 2023 07:09:56 -0500, Mighty? Wannabe?
@.> wrote:

Carlos E.R. wrote on 1/18/2023 5:19 AM:
On 2023-01-18 05:34, Mighty? Wannabe? wrote:
De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.
The reverse.

De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.

https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/

Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
Here are some similarities and differences that are key to understanding
them:

    Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.

    Deionized water is purer than distilled water.

    Distilled water conducts electricity, while deionized water does not.

Indeed it does say that, but it doesn\'t give much in the way of reasons.
Pretty much proof by assertion.

OTOH, my googling yielded contradictory results!!!!

I haven\'t read them yet, or looked for tie breakers, becusae I think
it\'s worth reporting the mere fact that it has contradictory results:

Here is my search
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=deionized+water+vs+distilled+water+for+batteries
and, not counting the Q&A part, these are the first two hits.

Water that has been purified of dissolved minerals and salts through a
process called deionization is recognized as the best choice for
maintaining lead-acid batteries. Deionization eliminates more impurities
from water than distillation or conventional filters.
The Perfect “Solution” for Maintaining Your Lead-Acid Batteries
https://www.crown.com › articles › energy-management

vs.

Can you use Deionized Water in Batteries?
https://www.phlsci.com › news › articles › can-you-use-...
Oct 12, 2021 — Whilst deionized water is not as pure as distilled water;
it is perfect for industrial battery watering. It is a cost-effective
method


Plainlly, the second article was written by a Brit, or someone from the
Commonwealth. As an American, I should favor the first article, but I
don\'t, so I will control my patriotism and wait for more information.


If the only ions in distilled but not de-ionized water are hyrogen,
oxygen and/or hydroxide ions, I don\'t see how they would cause a probem
in a battery. Doesn\'t any water in a lead acid battery ionize into
those very ions? And how could there be other ions than those three in
distilled water? Maybe the answer is in the articles, but I\'ve already
spent a lot of time on this thread, so I\'ll either wait until you guys
resolve this, or I\'ll come back later with renewed energy.

People have the wrong impression that \"distilled water\" is the purest
form of water but that\'s not true. Common distilled water is obtained by
boiling water and collecting the condensed steam. The condensed steam is
not 100% pure H2O because there are chemicals in the water with lower
boiling point than H2O that will come over in the distillation process.

The best way to get deionized water is to start the deionization process
with distilled water because there will be a lot less impurities to
remove, and distilled water is cheap and easy to get.

You don\'t get pure H2O by using a home water deionizer in your water
pipe using resin beads because most of the impurities will still pass
through the resin beads.

You can tell deionized water is purer simply by the price. I can get a
gallon (4L) of distilled water from a supermarket for about $1, but I
have to go to an auto-parts store to get deionized water for about $6.

https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/turbo-power-deionized-water-3-78-l-0293003p.html

 

[Mighty✅ Wannabe✅]

Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote on 1/18/2023 7:55 AM:

micky wrote on 1/18/2023 7:36 AM:
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 18 Jan 2023 07:09:56 -0500, Mighty? Wannabe?
@.> wrote:

Carlos E.R. wrote on 1/18/2023 5:19 AM:
On 2023-01-18 05:34, Mighty? Wannabe? wrote:
De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.
The reverse.

De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.

https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/

Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
Here are some similarities and differences that are key to
understanding
them:

     Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.

     Deionized water is purer than distilled water.

     Distilled water conducts electricity, while deionized water
does not.

Indeed it does say that, but it doesn\'t give much in the way of reasons.
Pretty much proof by assertion.

OTOH, my googling yielded contradictory results!!!!

I haven\'t read them yet, or looked for tie breakers, becusae I think
it\'s worth reporting the mere fact that it has contradictory results:

Here is my search
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=deionized+water+vs+distilled+water+for+batteries

and, not counting the Q&A part, these are the first two hits.

Water that has been purified of dissolved minerals and salts through a
process called deionization is recognized as the best choice for
maintaining lead-acid batteries. Deionization eliminates more impurities
from water than distillation or conventional filters.
The Perfect “Solution” for Maintaining Your Lead-Acid Batteries
https://www.crown.com › articles › energy-management

vs.

Can you use Deionized Water in Batteries?
https://www.phlsci.com › news › articles › can-you-use-...
Oct 12, 2021 — Whilst deionized water is not as pure as distilled water;
it is perfect for industrial battery watering. It is a cost-effective
method


Plainlly, the second article was written by a Brit, or someone from the
Commonwealth.  As an American, I should favor the first article, but I
don\'t, so I will control my patriotism and wait for more information.


If the only ions in distilled but not de-ionized water are hyrogen,
oxygen and/or hydroxide ions, I don\'t see how they would cause a probem
in a battery.  Doesn\'t any water in a lead acid battery ionize into
those very ions?  And how could there be other ions than those three in
distilled water?   Maybe the answer is in the articles, but I\'ve already
spent a lot of time on this thread, so I\'ll either wait until you guys
resolve this, or I\'ll come back later with renewed energy.


People have the wrong impression that \"distilled water\" is the purest
form of water but that\'s not true. Common distilled water is obtained
by boiling water and collecting the condensed steam. The condensed
steam is not 100% pure H2O because there are chemicals in the water
with lower boiling point than H2O that will come over in the
distillation process.

The best way to get deionized water is to start the deionization
process with distilled water because there will be a lot less
impurities to remove, and distilled water is cheap and easy to get.

You don\'t get pure H2O by using a home water deionizer in your water
pipe using resin beads because most of the impurities will still pass
through the resin beads.

You can tell deionized water is purer simply by the price. I can get a
gallon (4L) of distilled water from a supermarket for about $1, but I
have to go to an auto-parts store to get deionized water for about $6.

https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/turbo-power-deionized-water-3-78-l-0293003p.html

Read the product description of that deionized water for \"topping up car
battery\":

Turbo Power Deionized Water, 3.78-L

Turbo Power Deionized Water helps provide protection against the
damaging effects of scale build-up and corrosion often caused by the use
of regular water. Ideal for topping-up cooling systems, topping-up car
batteries when battery acid level is low and diluting concentrated
radiator antifreeze/coolants.

 

[rbowman]

On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 07:09:56 -0500, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote:

> https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/

I\'ll see your URL and raise you two:

https://www.uswatersystems.com/deionized-water-vs-distilled-water

\"Deionized water and Distilled water are both types of extremely pure
water, but they are produced in two distinctly different ways. Depending
on the source water, distilled water can be more pure than deionized water
– but that doesn\'t necessarily mean that it\'s better. There are pros and
cons to using deionized water vs. distilled water for particular
processes, particularly when it comes to cost and efficiency.\"

https://americanhomewater.com/what-is-deionized-water-and-what-is-it-used-
for/

\"The main difference between these two types of water comes in the form of
purity. Deionized water is the purest form of water available and, in some
cases, can be considered a type of synthetic water. However, distilled
water does not contain any impurities and therefore has fewer contaminants
than deionized water.\"

It\'s a toss.

 

[Peter]

MightyWannabe wrote:

There is a good possibility the rectifiers (diodes) in your alternator
could fry because it is recommended that your car be running when you
jump start another car. The rectifiers of your car is supplying electric
current from the alternator and can overload due to the jump start
operation.

In the recipient car, when the engine finally starts, I was told since I
was young that the best way to \"absorb\" some of the excess current in the
first few seconds is for the recipient to turn on the headlights.

This seems counterintuitive from the recipient\'s standpoint in terms of
\"using\" current but the theory is that the \"B\" sense circuit of the
alternator (which is just a coil of wire in the end) senses a \"very low\"
battery so it tells the alternator to put out a \"very high\" current, whose
initial burst could (\"they say\") fry the rectifying wheatstone diodes.

Maybe it makes sense to the electronics folks who are asked to comment.

There is also the possibility of the voltage drop so low momentarily
that your car stereo\'s anti-theft system kicks in, and you\'ll have to go
back to the car dealership to enter the anti-theft code. The anti-theft
system detects the zero voltage when it is ripped from the dashboard.

But what happens each time you replace the battery every few years?

 

[Mighty✅ Wannabe✅]

rbowman wrote on 1/18/2023 9:40 AM:

On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 07:09:56 -0500, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote:

https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/
I\'ll see your URL and raise you two:

https://www.uswatersystems.com/deionized-water-vs-distilled-water

\"Deionized water and Distilled water are both types of extremely pure
water, but they are produced in two distinctly different ways. Depending
on the source water, distilled water can be more pure than deionized water
– but that doesn\'t necessarily mean that it\'s better. There are pros and
cons to using deionized water vs. distilled water for particular
processes, particularly when it comes to cost and efficiency.\"

https://americanhomewater.com/what-is-deionized-water-and-what-is-it-used-
for/

\"The main difference between these two types of water comes in the form of
purity. Deionized water is the purest form of water available and, in some
cases, can be considered a type of synthetic water. However, distilled
water does not contain any impurities and therefore has fewer contaminants
than deionized water.\"

It\'s a toss.

\"However, distilled water does not contain any impurities\" is definitely
a misconception. The writer of that article is definitely babbling
nonsense without any real knowledge.

I am a self-made expert in distillation. I own two expensive fractional
distillation columns, and I currently own about 5 counter-top water
distillers. If you know how to use the digital counter-top water
distiller in an inventive way, you can do fractional distillation
professionally in your kitchen.

Fractional distillation column:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractionating_column

When water boils, it is not just pure H2O that is coming out in the
steam. All other minor solutes in the water with boiling point lower
than water will also come out in the steam. Besides that, some of the
light weight microscopic impurities in the water will also \"ride\" the
steam and come out of the boiling water.

You can do very accurate fractional distillation using a digital
counter-top water distiller from Amazon. You can set the boiling
temperature digitally, and theoretically you can separately a mixture of
many solutes with differently boiling points by distilling at different
temperatures.

My own expertise is electrical engineering but I am, in a way, a crazy
scientist.

There are a few varieties of digital counter-top water distillers from
Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=digital+countertop+water+distiller

Most of them are 750W power. That will be too much power if you try to
distill a volatile liquid because the built-in fan and condenser coil at
the top of the distiller cannot condense the volatile vapour fast enough
(so some of them will escape to the air). You can effectively cut the
power in half by opening the bottom and solder a single rectifier diode
to the wire leading to the heating coil. You can further adjust the
power by connecting to unit to a variable auto-transformer which can
lower the power supply voltage to reduce power.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=variable+auto+transformer

I\'ll refuse any responsibility if you cause physical injury or property
damage by trying the fun things I have just described above.

 

[Peter]

<hubops@ccanoemail.com> wrote:

I always did positive first. I will switch!

Think it out first - then decide.

I\'m thinking... I\'m thinking... I\'m trying to think this thing out.
I don\'t think it matters all that much which cable goes first or last.

As far as I can think about it, the last connection is the one that sparks.
And that means the first disconnection is the one that sparks.

Since you don\'t want that spark to be near any concentration of flammable
hydrogen gas, I guess the theory that I\'ll concoct is you want the negative
cable to be as far from that hydrogen gas as possible.

That makes it the negative cable to be the last to connect.
And the first to disconnect.

Now, if the theory is to proceed accordingly, we have to decide which
battery has the most chance of having excess hydrogen gas.

The answer likely is neither will have any, but if we have to choose, which
battery will have more hydrogen outgassing?

(A) The donor battery (which is likely already topped off) or
(B) The recipient battery (which is likely taking the greater charge)

The answer seems, to me, to be neither battery will have excess hydrogen
gas, but if I was forced to choose, I guess the battery being charged the
most has the most excess hydrogen gas, which would clearly be the donor.

All this is just \"thinking it out\" so tell me if I\'m wrong so I learn from
your expertise (the royal your that is, as everyone has something to say).

 

[Peter]

Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:

De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.
The reverse.

De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.

https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/

Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
Here are some similarities and differences that are key to understanding
them:

    Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.

    Deionized water is purer than distilled water.

    Distilled water conducts electricity, while deionized water does not.

Indeed it does say that, but it doesn\'t give much in the way of reasons.
Pretty much proof by assertion.

OTOH, my googling yielded contradictory results!!!!

I haven\'t read them yet, or looked for tie breakers, becusae I think
it\'s worth reporting the mere fact that it has contradictory results:

Here is my search
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=deionized+water+vs+distilled+water+for+batteries
and, not counting the Q&A part, these are the first two hits.

Water that has been purified of dissolved minerals and salts through a
process called deionization is recognized as the best choice for
maintaining lead-acid batteries. Deionization eliminates more impurities
from water than distillation or conventional filters.
The Perfect “Solution” for Maintaining Your Lead-Acid Batteries
https://www.crown.com › articles › energy-management

vs.

Can you use Deionized Water in Batteries?
https://www.phlsci.com › news › articles › can-you-use-...
Oct 12, 2021 — Whilst deionized water is not as pure as distilled water;
it is perfect for industrial battery watering. It is a cost-effective
method


Plainlly, the second article was written by a Brit, or someone from the
Commonwealth. As an American, I should favor the first article, but I
don\'t, so I will control my patriotism and wait for more information.


If the only ions in distilled but not de-ionized water are hyrogen,
oxygen and/or hydroxide ions, I don\'t see how they would cause a probem
in a battery. Doesn\'t any water in a lead acid battery ionize into
those very ions? And how could there be other ions than those three in
distilled water? Maybe the answer is in the articles, but I\'ve already
spent a lot of time on this thread, so I\'ll either wait until you guys
resolve this, or I\'ll come back later with renewed energy.

People have the wrong impression that \"distilled water\" is the purest
form of water but that\'s not true. Common distilled water is obtained by
boiling water and collecting the condensed steam. The condensed steam is
not 100% pure H2O because there are chemicals in the water with lower
boiling point than H2O that will come over in the distillation process.

The best way to get deionized water is to start the deionization process
with distilled water because there will be a lot less impurities to
remove, and distilled water is cheap and easy to get.

You don\'t get pure H2O by using a home water deionizer in your water
pipe using resin beads because most of the impurities will still pass
through the resin beads.

You can tell deionized water is purer simply by the price. I can get a
gallon (4L) of distilled water from a supermarket for about $1, but I
have to go to an auto-parts store to get deionized water for about $6.

https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/turbo-power-deionized-water-3-78-l-0293003p.html

Didn\'t the conversation recently happen that rain water (now that \"acid
rain\" is no longer a thing, thanks to the EPA), is just as good as
distilled water nowadays?

Sure, it\'s slightly acidic at pH 5.6 (if it\'s not acid rain, that is, as
acid rain is pH 5.5 or lower by EPA definition someone found out), but a
bit of weak carbonic acid (from the dissolved carbon dioxide) won\'t hurt
the strong sulfuric acid in a lead:acid battery, will it?

I\'m guessing that rain water nowadays, unless you live within a few miles
of a volcano (and you don\'t) or a coal-fired power plant (and you don\'t),
is pretty damn close to distilled water in most parts of the country.

Sure rain water will have a bit of \"something here\" and \"something there\"
based on the dissolved gases in the atmosphere, but so will any bottle of
distilled water that has ever been open to the exact same atmosphere.

Someone said there are \"particles\" in the rain water, but I don\'t believe
that as you can\'t see any when you collect it outside and even if there
were, a coffee filter would filter them out just fine (and who says store
bought distilled water doesn\'t have particles?).

Sure, both might have particles, but I can\'t imagine they could matter
given how few there would be if you can\'t even see them with your eyes.

But I don\'t know. I\'m just trying to reason this stuff out like the rest of
you. If there\'s someone who actually knows what he\'s talking about (not
me), then that person should set me straight before I go on with this line
of reasoning.

 

[Mighty✅ Wannabe✅]

Peter wrote on 1/18/2023 10:16 AM:

MightyWannabe wrote:

There is a good possibility the rectifiers (diodes) in your alternator
could fry because it is recommended that your car be running when you
jump start another car. The rectifiers of your car is supplying electric
current from the alternator and can overload due to the jump start
operation.
In the recipient car, when the engine finally starts, I was told since I
was young that the best way to \"absorb\" some of the excess current in the
first few seconds is for the recipient to turn on the headlights.

This seems counterintuitive from the recipient\'s standpoint in terms of
\"using\" current but the theory is that the \"B\" sense circuit of the
alternator (which is just a coil of wire in the end) senses a \"very low\"
battery so it tells the alternator to put out a \"very high\" current, whose
initial burst could (\"they say\") fry the rectifying wheatstone diodes.

Maybe it makes sense to the electronics folks who are asked to comment.

There is also the possibility of the voltage drop so low momentarily
that your car stereo\'s anti-theft system kicks in, and you\'ll have to go
back to the car dealership to enter the anti-theft code. The anti-theft
system detects the zero voltage when it is ripped from the dashboard.
But what happens each time you replace the battery every few years?

I can think of a simple way. Connect jump cable clamps to the car
battery terminals and then carefully loosen and lift the terminals from
the old battery.

Another way is to connect a 12V cigarette lighter plug into the
cigarette lighter socket to temporarily maintain a 12V to the whole
system from another 12V power source before you disconnect your old
battery. You may have to power on the accessories in your car if you car
is designed to cut off the power to the cigarette lighter socket when
the ignition is off.

 

[Peter W.]

Following up on Wannabe....

I am indirectly responsible for the care-and-feeding of a lab-grade RO/DI water system serving a 600,000 research facility and vivarium. It occupies over 300 square feet of footprint, runs 24/7 and will produce hundreds of gallons per hour, if needed. Points:

Lab Grade RO/DI water is very nearly mineral and salt-free, free of dissolved gasses, metals and other trace elements or contaminants, and very nearly unreactive. Meaning that it is nearly impossible to hydrolyze (break down into H2 & O2 by running a current through it). There are five separate steps in making the stuff, from City Water to Product, including pre-and-post filtration, softening, and going through the De-Ionization and Osmosis processes. This is NOT distilled water, and it is created by a far more complex process than simply boiling water.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Mighty✅ Wannabe✅]

Peter wrote on 1/18/2023 10:37 AM:

Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:
De-ionized water is purer than distilled water.
The reverse.

De-ionized water is pure than distilled water.

https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/

Two common types of treated water are distilled and deionized water.
Here are some similarities and differences that are key to understanding
them:

    Both distilled and deionized water are fit to drink.

    Deionized water is purer than distilled water.

    Distilled water conducts electricity, while deionized water does not.

Indeed it does say that, but it doesn\'t give much in the way of reasons.
Pretty much proof by assertion.

OTOH, my googling yielded contradictory results!!!!

I haven\'t read them yet, or looked for tie breakers, becusae I think
it\'s worth reporting the mere fact that it has contradictory results:

Here is my search
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=deionized+water+vs+distilled+water+for+batteries
and, not counting the Q&A part, these are the first two hits.

Water that has been purified of dissolved minerals and salts through a
process called deionization is recognized as the best choice for
maintaining lead-acid batteries. Deionization eliminates more impurities
from water than distillation or conventional filters.
The Perfect “Solution” for Maintaining Your Lead-Acid Batteries
https://www.crown.com › articles › energy-management

vs.

Can you use Deionized Water in Batteries?
https://www.phlsci.com › news › articles › can-you-use-...
Oct 12, 2021 — Whilst deionized water is not as pure as distilled water;
it is perfect for industrial battery watering. It is a cost-effective
method


Plainlly, the second article was written by a Brit, or someone from the
Commonwealth. As an American, I should favor the first article, but I
don\'t, so I will control my patriotism and wait for more information.


If the only ions in distilled but not de-ionized water are hyrogen,
oxygen and/or hydroxide ions, I don\'t see how they would cause a probem
in a battery. Doesn\'t any water in a lead acid battery ionize into
those very ions? And how could there be other ions than those three in
distilled water? Maybe the answer is in the articles, but I\'ve already
spent a lot of time on this thread, so I\'ll either wait until you guys
resolve this, or I\'ll come back later with renewed energy.
People have the wrong impression that \"distilled water\" is the purest
form of water but that\'s not true. Common distilled water is obtained by
boiling water and collecting the condensed steam. The condensed steam is
not 100% pure H2O because there are chemicals in the water with lower
boiling point than H2O that will come over in the distillation process.

The best way to get deionized water is to start the deionization process
with distilled water because there will be a lot less impurities to
remove, and distilled water is cheap and easy to get.

You don\'t get pure H2O by using a home water deionizer in your water
pipe using resin beads because most of the impurities will still pass
through the resin beads.

You can tell deionized water is purer simply by the price. I can get a
gallon (4L) of distilled water from a supermarket for about $1, but I
have to go to an auto-parts store to get deionized water for about $6.

https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/turbo-power-deionized-water-3-78-l-0293003p.html
Didn\'t the conversation recently happen that rain water (now that \"acid
rain\" is no longer a thing, thanks to the EPA), is just as good as
distilled water nowadays?

Sure, it\'s slightly acidic at pH 5.6 (if it\'s not acid rain, that is, as
acid rain is pH 5.5 or lower by EPA definition someone found out), but a
bit of weak carbonic acid (from the dissolved carbon dioxide) won\'t hurt
the strong sulfuric acid in a lead:acid battery, will it?

I\'m guessing that rain water nowadays, unless you live within a few miles
of a volcano (and you don\'t) or a coal-fired power plant (and you don\'t),
is pretty damn close to distilled water in most parts of the country.

Sure rain water will have a bit of \"something here\" and \"something there\"
based on the dissolved gases in the atmosphere, but so will any bottle of
distilled water that has ever been open to the exact same atmosphere.

Someone said there are \"particles\" in the rain water, but I don\'t believe
that as you can\'t see any when you collect it outside and even if there
were, a coffee filter would filter them out just fine (and who says store
bought distilled water doesn\'t have particles?).

Sure, both might have particles, but I can\'t imagine they could matter
given how few there would be if you can\'t even see them with your eyes.

But I don\'t know. I\'m just trying to reason this stuff out like the rest of
you. If there\'s someone who actually knows what he\'s talking about (not
me), then that person should set me straight before I go on with this line
of reasoning.

You can make do with rain water or tap water to top up the lead-acid
battery but doing it too often will accumulate too much impurities in
the battery fluid.

You can make do with distilled water but that is not as good as
deionized water, which technically should be processed from distilled water.

A responsible auto shop or car dealership should use deionized water to
dilute the sulfuric acid to use as battery fluid.

 

[Peter]

Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:

People have the wrong impression that \"distilled water\" is the purest
form of water but that\'s not true. Common distilled water is obtained by
boiling water and collecting the condensed steam. The condensed steam is
not 100% pure H2O because there are chemicals in the water with lower
boiling point than H2O that will come over in the distillation process.

The best way to get deionized water is to start the deionization process
with distilled water because there will be a lot less impurities to
remove, and distilled water is cheap and easy to get.

It\'s a car battery. It\'s not a silicon based integrated circuit.
Water is water. To a certain degree it\'s all the same thing.

I don\'t know the answer for sure, but I would reason out that almost all
tap water will be just fine in a car battery although I don\'t doubt
chlorine (or chloramines?) that they put in them might affect the lead:acid
chemistry.

They add fluorine too I think, and there might be a decent amount of
calcium carbonates and metallic ions such as copper and phosphorous.

I\'m guessing that the minute amount of such things (having owned a pool,
I\'m aware they\'re in the PPM range, and PPB for phosphorous) in a car
battery designed to last five years, won\'t make one bit of difference.

An example of tap water total alkalinity is around 50 to 200 PPM and the
calcium hardness due to calcium salts would range a bit higher, maybe
double (depending, of course, on the amount of old shallow seas in your
area fifty to two hundred million years ago).

But distilled water is cheap and rain water is even cheaper, and, in fact,
so is tap water - so since they\'re all dirt cheap, may as well use the rain
water.

That\'s how I see it from a reasoned approach, where I\'m very familiar with
the scare tactics pool stores try to pull on people when they find
something, anything, to say \"oh that\'s going to damage your equipment.\"

Same technique those Indian \"Microsoft support tech\" try to pull on you
when _they_ call you and tell you to look in the Event Viewer and all those
errors indicate your computer needs their expert help with ransomware
addition.

Overall, does ANYONE have ANY real data that tap water actually degrades a
car batter enough for someone to actually measure the results in 5 years?

 

[Peter]

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

\"Deionized water and Distilled water are both types of extremely pure
water, but they are produced in two distinctly different ways.

Has anyone wondered whether the \"pure\" water will be \"leaching\" out the
chemistry of the lead:acid plates inside the battery?

Having owned a pool, all water chemistry tends toward equilibrium, and
dissolved salts (metal and a non metal) are no exception to the rule.

So the more pure the water, the more it will dissolve a bit of that
lead:acid compound that they slather on the plates between rubber sheets.

Has anyone thought of that?

 

[Peter]

Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:

You can make do with rain water or tap water to top up the lead-acid
battery but doing it too often will accumulate too much impurities in
the battery fluid.

I say from the start that I\'m only \"reasoning\" this out, purely
theoretically, so while I\'m sure adding tap water with high calcium
carbonates will add \"some\" impurities.

Your use of \"too much\" is what bothers me, only because I\'ve never seen a
single reliable source that tested this for the five year life of a
battery.

I\'m sure someone tested it - but I\'ve never seen those tests, where my
assumption, without those tests, is sure, \"something\" will be added, but
will it make any difference in a twenty-five pound battery designed to last
only five years?

You can make do with distilled water but that is not as good as
deionized water, which technically should be processed from distilled water.

Again I\'m only reasoning this out, and I would back off on my rationale the
instant someone shows me batteries being harmed by rain water, which is
distilled water nowadays, despite the \"acid rain\" scare tactics of some.

The Indian \"Microsoft support techs\" tried to pull the same scare tactics
on me that the pool stores do, where they take a single tiny event and turn
it into the explosion of the Maine in Havana\'s harbor.

A responsible auto shop or car dealership should use deionized water to
dilute the sulfuric acid to use as battery fluid.

A commercial outfit will always follow industry standards if they\'re
reputable (most are not, in my humble opinion - most are scammers).

That\'s why you never believe anything coming out of the mouth of someone
selling you a service without checking it (for example, they\'ll tell you
that you \"need\" a fluid change when the owners manual will disagree).

They\'re all scheisters in my book - and I\'ve been sheisted by them so I
know this for a fact that some are sheisters who can\'t be trusted.

Back to this topic, how do you know that the \"pure\" water isn\'t leaching
out all the good paste on the plates, now that it\'s devoid of ions?

I\'m not asking this as a challenge - as the basic logic is sound.

What I\'m looking for is a real answer to the practical question of how much
could it possibly matter in a twenty-five pound battery designed for a
short life in what turns out to be miserably inhospitable temperature &
vibration conditions, not to mention discharge recharge redox cycles.

 

[Peter]

Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ <@.> wrote:

You can make do with rain water or tap water to top up the lead-acid
battery but doing it too often will accumulate too much impurities in
the battery fluid.

I say from the start that I\'m only \"reasoning\" this out, purely
theoretically, so while I\'m sure adding tap water with high calcium
carbonates will add \"some\" impurities.

Your use of \"too much\" is what bothers me, only because I\'ve never seen a
single reliable source that tested this for the five year life of a
battery.

I\'m sure someone tested it - but I\'ve never seen those tests, where my
assumption, without those tests, is sure, \"something\" will be added, but
will it make any difference in a twenty-five pound battery designed to last
only five years?

You can make do with distilled water but that is not as good as
deionized water, which technically should be processed from distilled water.

Again I\'m only reasoning this out, and I would back off on my rationale the
instant someone shows me batteries being harmed by rain water, which is
distilled water nowadays, despite the \"acid rain\" scare tactics of some.

The Indian \"Microsoft support techs\" tried to pull the same scare tactics
on me that the pool stores do, where they take a single tiny event and turn
it into the explosion of the Maine in Havana\'s harbor.

A responsible auto shop or car dealership should use deionized water to
dilute the sulfuric acid to use as battery fluid.

A commercial outfit will always follow industry standards if they\'re
reputable (most are not, in my humble opinion - most are scammers).

That\'s why you never believe anything coming out of the mouth of someone
selling you a service without checking it (for example, they\'ll tell you
that you \"need\" a fluid change when the owners manual will disagree).

They\'re all scheisters in my book - and I\'ve been sheisted by them so I
know this for a fact that some are sheisters who can\'t be trusted.

Back to this topic, how do you know that the \"pure\" water isn\'t leaching
out all the good paste on the plates, now that it\'s devoid of ions?

I\'m not asking this as a challenge - as the basic logic is sound.

What I\'m looking for is a real answer to the practical question of how much
could it possibly matter in a twenty-five pound battery designed for a
short life in what turns out to be miserably inhospitable temperature &
vibration conditions, not to mention discharge recharge redox cycles.

 

[Mighty✅ Wannabe✅]

Peter wrote on 1/18/2023 10:53 AM:

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
\"Deionized water and Distilled water are both types of extremely pure
water, but they are produced in two distinctly different ways.
Has anyone wondered whether the \"pure\" water will be \"leaching\" out the
chemistry of the lead:acid plates inside the battery?

Having owned a pool, all water chemistry tends toward equilibrium, and
dissolved salts (metal and a non metal) are no exception to the rule.

So the more pure the water, the more it will dissolve a bit of that
lead:acid compound that they slather on the plates between rubber sheets.

Has anyone thought of that?

Have you thought of using corncob instead of toilet paper? Corncob is
cheap, natural and reusable. LOL!!!

Although deionized water is 6 times more expensive than distilled water,
but one gallon goes a long way.

Use deionized water if you want the best for your lead-acid battery.

 

[Peter]

micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:

It had to do with accidentally ....aha it had to do with
accidentally touching both cables to the frame of the car. Say you\'ve
hooked it up to the car with the good battery, and then you connect the
negative first. Then while you\'re trying to connect the positive (and
sometimes that\'s not easy. It has a cover or it\'s tucked away, or you
can see it but can\'t get the clamp on, you touch the metal body or
engine or frame of the car. Now you have both cables touching the frame
while at the other end, at the car you are using to jump your own, they
are connected to a good battery. Big spark.

Well. That makes sense. So maybe my initial reasoning was wrong that the
last cable attach will spark, and you want that spark away from the
battery, so that would have to be the negative cable.

However, you also said that the DISCHARGED battery is the one with all the
hydrogen, so that means that you want to put the donor battery cable on
last (because that\'s where the spark will be and the donor battery is
presumed to have less hydrogen outgassing).

But then you made a good point that if you put the positive on first, then
anything any negative touches by accident, will spark where it touched.

So now we have one good reason to put the negative on last and specifically
the negative on the DONOR car on last by one line of reasoning, and by
another line of reasoning, we have the positive going on last, presumably
also on the donor car because it\'s going to spark.

Which is the correct line of reasoning?

(A) Put the negative on the donor car last because that spark is least
likely to ignite hydrogen gases from the discharged battery or
(B) Put the positive on the donor car last because you have less chance
of accidentally shorting the circuit & the donor has less outgassing

Which is more logical?

 

[Frank]

On 1/18/2023 11:18 AM, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote:

Peter wrote on 1/18/2023 10:53 AM:
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
\"Deionized water and Distilled water are both types of extremely pure
water, but they are produced in two distinctly different ways.
Has anyone wondered whether the \"pure\" water will be \"leaching\" out the
chemistry of the lead:acid plates inside the battery?

Having owned a pool, all water chemistry tends toward equilibrium, and
dissolved salts (metal and a non metal) are no exception to the rule.

So the more pure the water, the more it will dissolve a bit of that
lead:acid compound that they slather on the plates between rubber sheets.

Has anyone thought of that?


Have you thought of using corncob instead of toilet paper? Corncob is
cheap, natural and reusable. LOL!!!

Although deionized water is 6 times more expensive than distilled water,
but one gallon goes a long way.

Use deionized water if you want the best for your lead-acid battery.

Think those costs are off with two different sources and sizes.

Google sez this:

\"However, in general, distilled water is more expensive than deionized
water. This is because it takes more time and energy to produce
distilled water, and it also requires special equipment that not all
companies have.\"

When I worked in the lab we had a distilled water line to every bench
but it was replaced by deionized water to save cost.

Been decades since I had a car battery that needed water but I am
hearing it is better to put distilled or demineralized water in your car
radiator if needed as minerals are bad there too.

 

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 18 Jan 2023 16:21:25 +0000, Peter
<occassionally-confused@nospam.co.uk> wrote:

micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
It had to do with accidentally ....aha it had to do with
accidentally touching both cables to the frame of the car. Say you\'ve
hooked it up to the car with the good battery, and then you connect the
negative first. Then while you\'re trying to connect the positive (and
sometimes that\'s not easy. It has a cover or it\'s tucked away, or you
can see it but can\'t get the clamp on, you touch the metal body or
engine or frame of the car. Now you have both cables touching the frame
while at the other end, at the car you are using to jump your own, they
are connected to a good battery. Big spark.

Well. That makes sense. So maybe my initial reasoning was wrong that the
last cable attach will spark, and you want that spark away from the
battery, so that would have to be the negative cable.

However, you also said that the DISCHARGED battery is the one with all the
hydrogen, so that means that you want to put the donor battery cable on
last (because that\'s where the spark will be and the donor battery is
presumed to have less hydrogen outgassing).

Oh yeah, I think they say to do that too, but I\'ve never worried about
that. And I\'ve gotten tired of standing there holding my battery cables
waiting for someone to offer me a jump, so I bought what is no longer
sold, Battery Buddy. It was great. When the car voltage got low, it
disconnected the battery and all you had to do was open the hood, push a
big red button, and the car woulds start. The first one lasted iirc 12
years, but I had planned ahead and bought another, tthat came in an
unlabeled brown box. It lasted only a year or two. I think it came from
their stack of likely defective ones, that say in a corner until the
company folded. (a lot of assumptions here, but I coudlnt\' find any
more for sale.)

Finally I found Priority Start, 4 or 5 times the price, but it has a
motor, so all I have to do is sit in the driver\'s seat and put my foot
on the brake and it reconnects the battery. I\'ve had it 3 or 4 years
and I\'ve used it twice and it\'s great. It seems to be made mostly for
commerical trucking fleets, so they would lose money if the truck
doesn\'t start, and they tolerate the higher price.
https://www.prioritystart.com/
http://www.mcssl.com/store/prioritystart/12vpromax
https://www.mcssl.com/store/prioritystart/models

I had a lot of trouble connecting the Toyota battery cable to this
thing. Toyota\'s seem pretty good but their battery connectors leave a
lot to be desired. Or some related problem.

The car radio forgets most of what it wants knew, and the engine timing
information is forgotten I guess, although I\'ve never noticed a change
in how the car runs, at least not for more than 5 minutes. Newer cars
might forget even more, but at least I wasn\'t late to my doctor\'s
appointment.

But then you made a good point that if you put the positive on first, then
anything any negative touches by accident, will spark where it touched.

So now we have one good reason to put the negative on last and specifically
the negative on the DONOR car on last by one line of reasoning, and by
another line of reasoning, we have the positive going on last, presumably
also on the donor car because it\'s going to spark.

Which is the correct line of reasoning?

(A) Put the negative on the donor car last because that spark is least
likely to ignite hydrogen gases from the discharged battery or
(B) Put the positive on the donor car last because you have less chance
of accidentally shorting the circuit & the donor has less outgassing

Which is more logical?

I don\'t see any reason to doubt what the poobahs say.

 

[Charles Lucas]

One of the reasons why the specific order is indicated (that is \"Positive First\" is attached
and then \"Negative Last\" is attached when connecting a car battery- and the when
disconnecting a battery, the Negative is disconnected first, followed by the positive
last- vice versa when connecting and disconnecting as just explained in this order)
for a few reasons.

First of all, with DC, it is direct current. By doing as instructed with the negative terminal,
you minimize or eliminate electrostatic discharge (which can be harder on other components),
the memory circuits on either a car or other device are \"cleared\" or re-initialized in this way,
and it minimizes the risk of a short circuit (or the positive and negative \"touching\") when this
is done. So, it saves your components (and your battery too).

Good Luck.

Charles Lucas